Sensitive and offended.

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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby 1011Iron on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:04 pm

I reckon it'll all go tits up in 'Murica in 10-15 years...

"Were you encouraged to transition as a child?"

"Did hormone treatment make you infertile?"

"Did your parents fail in their duty of care?"

"Call GenderLawyers4U on 1-800...."

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html

"...the small but consistent body of research suggesting that something like three-quarters of children with gender dysphoria will “desist” — they’ll eventually come to feel comfortable with their natal gender (and will also, relative to the general population, have an increased likelihood of eventually identifying as gay or bisexual)."

"But the politics are racing ahead of the science anyway. It has simply been decided, in some quarters, that firm childhood statements of gender dysphoria are signals of real, meaningful identity, and need to be respected as such. In a sense, this is understandable: For decades trans adults have faced the potent, dehumanizing obstacle of denialism, of people telling them they aren’t really who they say they are, that they’re actually mentally ill or perverted or whatever else. The problem is that there’s solid scientific evidence — not infallible, but solid — to suggest that kids really are a different category."
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby MD_HM on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:14 pm

I think I understand what you are saying but if a person born female wants to play football, wear trousers and be a builder just for example surely they are still female (a woman).

I don’t understand why for example an 8 year old female that prefers to play football would need to be referred to anything other than a girl.

As of course playing football, wearing trousers and being a builder can all be done by a woman/female.

I actually have a pink shirt on now, my son who is five has worn pink since he was young and helps me when I cook (traditionally done by the wife).

If the problem is perceived activities then surely that’s the issue?

Not sure how such choices in clothing, job or activity means you need to be referred to not as boy/male/man or girl/female/woman unless there is an issue with wanting to change your sex???

But I get where your coming from in terms of being brought up differently to your sister, although in some parts we have evolved and don’t tie in to such stereotypes with parenting now.
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby westham,eggyandchips on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:18 pm

Glad I haven't got kids! :phew:
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby DrVenk on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:23 pm

MD_HM wrote:I don’t understand why for example an 8 year old female that prefers to play football would need to be referred to anything other than a girl.
.


I can't get enough details on this specific case, but I'm probably with you here. Before I was just talking about the need to appreciate the difference between sex and gender in general, but foisting these decisions onto children is uncomfortable to say the least. If a child seems to naturally gravitate towards a gender identity not associated with their sex, then some serious parental support is required. It's not easy when you just feel and want to look very different from your peers.
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby Rocket on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Until (I think) the turn of the last century, pink was seen as a male colour and blue a female colour. Pink is diluted red, which is the colour of blood and therefore the colour of war; blue paint used to come from the precious stone lapis lazuli; it was therefore the most expensive colour and was thus used to paint the Virgin Mary in order to show reverence to her.
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby delbert on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:49 pm

People can identify themselves as what ever they want, I once thought I was a decent footballer. It's how they behave and then expect others to treat them that causes the problems.
If a 30 year old bloke identify's himself as a teenage girl then I at least expect to see the semblance of a teenage girl, not some balding fat freak who shoves two tennis balls down his top so he can loiter around in the girls toilet.........
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby sendô on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:06 pm

There's two genders - male and female. A bloke can dress up as a woman if he wants, he can call himself Shirley for all I care, but he'll remain a bloke until the crown jewels are split down the middle.

Apparently there's over 50 different genders. Honestly, what chance have the kids got?
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby WHU_Del on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:35 pm

sendô wrote:There's two genders - male and female. A bloke can dress up as a woman if he wants, he can call himself Shirley for all I care, but he'll remain a bloke until the crown jewels are split down the middle.

Apparently there's over 50 different genders. Honestly, what chance have the kids got?

There are two sexes (and that's without discussing hermaphrodites, etc). There are multiple genders.
But for a moment, let's take your argument as correct where you insist that a male must have a penis and testicles.
You would agree, I'm sure, that it's perfectly possible for a male to be born without a kidney, for example, or an ear?
So why do you find it so difficult to believe that a male can be born without a penis? Or even that a female can be born with one? There are plenty of people out there that feel that they do not belong to the sex they were born as, I personally know two people born as female that have transitioned to male (one of whom can grow a better beard than me), and two born as male that have transitioned to female, and that's how they feel, that those organs that defined their birth sex (penis and testicles or vagina and breasts) are superfluous or lacking to them.
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby sendô on Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:18 am

That's a sex change. I have no issue with it, if that's what they want to do.
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby hemelite on Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:14 am

sendô wrote:That's a sex change. I have no issue with it, if that's what they want to do.


Provided their paying for it i agree, but not on the NHS. The money should be spent on better things like Children's cancer etc
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby Turns to Stone on Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:53 am

Good posts, Venky! Sex and Gender is
An important distinction and one that not enough people understand before forming an opinion on it.

Also labels are important in this discussion. One of the the biggest issues in the 'sensitive/offended' discussion is seemingly out 'need' for labels.

For example, my wife and I are trying to raise our son to see beyond gender. If he wants to be a ballet dancer or wear pink clothes, no issue. I want him to grow up knowing that anyone (regardless of their sex) can do anything they want. Done would say that I'm raising him to be 'gender neutral' which I am. But that term confusee people.
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby WHU_Del on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:07 am

sendô wrote:That's a sex change. I have no issue with it, if that's what they want to do.

OK, so you understand that some people want to change sex.
So why can they not change gender, which isn't anything biological?
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby sendô on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:43 am

So how do you change gender then?
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby WHU_Del on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:50 am

sendô wrote:So how do you change gender then?

Exactly like DrVenk described on the last page.
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby sendô on Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:00 am

Do you mean this?

DrVenk wrote:Now, I was born male. Got the purple wand and hairy sack of magic to prove it. And as part of that, I was raised in blue clothing (not pink), encouraged to play football, helped my dad out on DIY etc. That is, raised as a 'boy' - football...it's what boys play. My sister, being born with a fanny, was raised differently - gynmnastics, wore pink, never was allowed to help my dad with DIY etc. She was raised as a 'girl' - gymnastics and dolls houses...'girls love that sort of thing'

So - you can see how based on our different genitalia we were moulded differently. The point about people concerned with gender identity is that they argue that we don't have to accept the way we moulded just because we were born with certain genitalia.

A further example - if I suddenly ditched my masculine identity (that is, ideas about what is to be a 'man') and decided 'nope, sod jeans and shirt, I'm off to primark to get a black sparkly number, and I just LOVE those high heels'...then I am adopting a woman gender identity. Still got the purple wand and hairy sack of magic, but how I want to identify myself, outwardly, socially, is as a woman, not a man. "Man! I feel like a woman".

So, I can be both male and a woman. Analytically sound.


If so, then it isn't changing anything.

All it means is said "man" is not conforming to gender stereotypes. People are free to do what they want, girls can play football, men can do ballet.

In fact if I'm honest, saying that a man isn't a man unless he's playing football, doing DIY and wearing jeans is quite sexist. Ditto for women that don't spend their time knitting and cooking.
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby ageing hammer on Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:19 am

sendô wrote:So how do you change gender then?


Put an "A" in there like this gander :wink:
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby delbert on Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:25 am

On LBC at the moment some simpering right on shitwit is defending the term parent one and parent two as a replacement for mother and father, he reckons that not everyone has a mother and a father.
Immaculate conception is in the realms of political correctness now apparently.

I think the best thing to do with these sort of people is to export them onto their own island somewhere and leave them to just get on with things, given a month they will have simply died out...........
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby MD_HM on Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:30 am

Turns to Stone wrote:For example, my wife and I are trying to raise our son to see beyond gender. If he wants to be a ballet dancer or wear pink clothes, no issue. I want him to grow up knowing that anyone (regardless of their sex) can do anything they want. Done would say that I'm raising him to be 'gender neutral' which I am. But that term confusee people.


This to me is odd.

I would say we are also raising our son to wear colours he wants, or take up the hobbies he enjoys whether that be football or cooking for example.

But he is a boy, he knows the difference between “boys and girls” and to me gender only comes into it if you have old fashion views on what a man or woman should doing. Which is in fact just sexism.

The only reason you would say your bringing your child up gender neutral is if you have a percieved view on for example pink and cooking is for girls only.

Otherwise surely he is just a boy that enjoys cooking/dancing... not sure that needs a label as it’s perfectly normal... wouldn’t call that gender neutral at all.
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby ageing hammer on Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:35 am

delbert wrote:On LBC at the moment some simpering right on shitwit is defending the term parent one and parent two as a replacement for mother and father, he reckons that not everyone has a mother and a father.
Immaculate conception is in the realms of political correctness now apparently.

I think the best thing to do with these sort of people is to export them onto their own island somewhere and leave them to just get on with things, given a month they will have simply died out...........


But what about " No man is an island " :D
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Re: Sensitive and offended.

Postby sendô on Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:36 am

delbert wrote:On LBC at the moment some simpering right on shitwit is defending the term parent one and parent two as a replacement for mother and father, he reckons that not everyone has a mother and a father.
Immaculate conception is in the realms of political correctness now apparently.

I think the best thing to do with these sort of people is to export them onto their own island somewhere and leave them to just get on with things, given a month they will have simply died out...........

This offends me as discriminatory against parent two. Why can't we have two parent ones?
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