A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby Adrianisournumber1 on Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:06 pm

Puff Daddy wrote:In my job of trying to get the long term unemployed back into work, I counsel a hell of lot of people suffering from anxiety and depression and my belief is, many of them hide behind this excuse. Yesterday, one of customers who claims to have suffered with this for nearly 10 years and who has not done a stroke of work in that time, told me, one in four people in this country has this condition. In a country with a 60 million population, does that mean 15 million of us are not quite right in the head ?


Puff raises a point but think it's worded massively insensitively i dont work personally i volunteer for a variety of projects, from the sussex fa, to setting up mental health projects at a number of football clubs. I dont claim any benefits also my wife earns a nice wage and we have a youngster who isnt that well so i stay at home and do my work as a volunteer. I am looking at going charity status on my projects in the future. I also find the pressure of daily work massively difficult not from the fact its hard getting up from 9-5pm but having to be well 7days a week i do it for a year or so then end up in hospital. then spend a few years on the social recovering, but during that i do engage in services it is important to.

Today i did a presentation and did touch on a number of things that i think puff might be getting at. I work with a few people in my time who are not engaging in any mental health services, have depression and they clearly do but they do nothing to engage in services just turn up to our weekly sessions that sort of thing does need to train. Today i included that services users now have to be actively engaging with services if they want to play on match days as i feel there has to be a desire and a commitment to get better or personally programs like what i run are pointless in the long run.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby pablo jaye on Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:10 pm

I went on a couple of courses at work today, focussed around World Mental Health Day. There were many things that struck me.

Firstly, the 1 in 4 quote relates to the proportion of people who have mental health issues at some stage in life. Not necessarily always acute issues, nor ones that last a long time and range of mental ill health is vast.

The issue of ‘stigma’ attached to mental health was discussed, and the best way to break down stigma, is to discuss things - something that this thread is a great example of.

Starting ‘courageous conversations’ about mental health was also another interesting discussion and also something that this thread is a great example of.

There was also a saying - if you change ‘i’ for ‘we’, then ‘ill health’ becomes ‘well health’, emphasising the importance of talking.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby Adrianisournumber1 on Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:59 pm

somerset-hammer wrote:Cracking idea, that. :thup:


If more are up for a group meet then il speak to Anwar and look at getting some funding together or see if he can get in contact with the club himself and see about a day out at the ground.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby Adrianisournumber1 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:10 am

pablo jaye wrote:I went on a couple of courses at work today, focussed around World Mental Health Day. There were many things that struck me.

Firstly, the 1 in 4 quote relates to the proportion of people who have mental health issues at some stage in life. Not necessarily always acute issues, nor ones that last a long time and range of mental ill health is vast.

The issue of ‘stigma’ attached to mental health was discussed, and the best way to break down stigma, is to discuss things - something that this thread is a great example of.

Starting ‘courageous conversations’ about mental health was also another interesting discussion and also something that this thread is a great example of.

There was also a saying - if you change ‘i’ for ‘we’, then ‘ill health’ becomes ‘well health’, emphasising the importance of talking.


I disagree with the last part i think people need to focus on ill health oddly enough Piers Morgan tweeted something very similar to that earlier. People are already feeling isolated enough by changing words like ill health your taking away the fact they are actually ill. You wouldn't tell someone with cancer they have well health so why tell someone with mental health they do.

One thing probably most who have not had to deal with the NHS surrounding mental health probably dont realise is that there are no directives in a time frame that someone with mental health has to be seen in like there is with a physical health condition, i currently know someone who is 6months into a counselling referral wait, 6 months and still no treatment. The government need to set a clear directive on mental health and treatment times then you will see a big change. What many also dont realise is that 3rd sector care for organisations such as Mind, together, scda etc... who provide 1-1 support budgets are now as low as they have ever been meaning things are being done on a shoe string.
At the end of the day our delightful government can try and shine things as ever they want, but our mental health services are on there knees, services are being axed and axed and people are struggling far more in isolated circumstances than they ever have before.

I know from personal and work experience you go to a&e in crisis " we cant help you until you actually done something" so 3 hours later your being taken in by ambulance haven taken an overdose or cut your self as you know that is the only way you can get acute treatment from mental health services.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby pablo jaye on Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:41 am

Adrian - I see what you mean there, so apologies if I’ve caused any upset. I suppose what I was trying to get over is the fact that it is OK to talk about mental health and that talking about it helps to break the stigma, not necessarily improve health.

I wonder whether the appointment of a new Minister responsible for mental health will have any effect on how it is dealt with in the NHS and any real change to issues that you talk about in hospitals. The government is pleading poverty and I can’t see any money tree in the garden, so the cynical side of me thinks that this is all a bit of a sop.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby Tenbury on Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:53 am

I often write posts in this thread, then they disappear, I'm pretty sure I'm not pressing send, or are they too much for the mods? I don't think it's the latter, as everyone on here is ,by and large, so supportive, but if I'm going too far please pm me. Thanks.
(I can be a bit paranoid).
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby somerset-hammer on Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:09 am

Tenners, the amount of posts I have written but then deleted (especially on this thread) is quite high, I suspect you might have done the same, and like me struggle to remember if you actually did post it or not, don't worry though I'm certain that none of yours or most other peoples posts would be deleted on this thread, especially without warning, and I have never seen any of your post that would warrant such actions in the first place.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby last.caress on Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:01 am

Tenbury wrote:I often write posts in this thread, then they disappear, I'm pretty sure I'm not pressing send


Tenbury I do this All. The. Time. On this thread, and all over the rest of this site, especially on the GD. I can't begin to tell you how many posts I've written out, re-drafted, previewed, dressed up with accompanying pictures, and then binned. Thing is, I've often spent so long on them, I've forgotten that I've binned them, and then I go looking to see how people responded after a couple of hours. :)
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby Adrianisournumber1 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:23 am

I done this but i started doing my posts in word so at least i can copy and paste them over.

Pablo the new Suicide minister is glorified click bait for the government on world mental health day, the MP in question is in a number of roles already, one would think this would need to be a full time roll in its own right given the stats banding around at the moment.

I know you didn't mean to cause any upset it just sometimes people think if we talk like this and that it does this but actually the people on the other end feel completely different.

I sent anwar an email just about this thread, about the idea of all getting together and trying to get to a game i think it be great to put a face to some of the names on here. Think this is probably the most important thread on this forum
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby mushy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:19 pm

Adrianisournumber1 wrote:


Today i did a presentation and did touch on a number of things that i think puff might be getting at. I work with a few people in my time who are not engaging in any mental health services, have depression and they clearly do but they do nothing to engage in services just turn up to our weekly sessions that sort of thing does need to train. Today i included that services users now have to be actively engaging with services if they want to play on match days as i feel there has to be a desire and a commitment to get better or personally programs like what i run are pointless in the long run.


Adrians,
Have you thought that one of the first signs of depression is disengagement?
It might just be worth thinking about the next time you decide that some of them wont be allowed to play football.

I dont know what your qualifications are and its great that you volunteer, but you seem to be making a judgement call here based on your opinion. If that isnt the case then I wholeheartedly apologise, but thats what comes across from your post.

Negative stereotyping is common where mental health is concerned, I would have hoped that the likes of Puff were above it.
This is not to say there are not phonies , of course there are, all I am saying is that who are we to make such judgement calls?
They should be given the benefit of the doubt in my opinion.
(There is a train of thought that says that people who pretend to be mentally ill must by default be mentally ill).

This thread has always been about engaging, there are people out there right now thinking about typing something in this forum that just might change their lives for the better, wouldnt it be a crying shame if they were put off, worried that people may think they were not quite all they seemed to be?
Adrians, am really sorry if this appears to be a personal pop at yourself, it really isnt, you should be really proud of yourself for what you are doing, but it might be an idea for all of us to keep the negative thoughts to ourselves.
We want to encourage not discourage.

I also apologise to the thread as a whole for coming over all matronly, but this thread, what is does, and what it hopes to do are very very important to me, and I for one would be pretty gutted if it fell through the cracks because we start pointing fingers at others, and as such I take some sort of personal responsibility for it. (As others on here do as well).

As an aside, I watched the Professor Green documentary again last night, talking about the suicide of his father. I find Green very engaging and thought the documentary to be very good.
If anyone can find the time, its worth watching on catchup.

Keep up the good work everyone and try and enjoy the fine weather.
Am off to Southend.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby DrVenk on Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:03 pm

mushy wrote:all I am saying is that who are we to make such judgement calls?


It is of no cost to any of us if we proceed as if people are really suffering when they say they are. Find out they are not? Well, you gave them a chance. If you proceed as if people are just being babies and then you find out they have severe anxiety issues because they were repeatedly raped as a child by their father, for example, then all you have done is think and act like a completely insensitive, thoughtless, cynical, presumptuous c*nt.

Always trust people first. The downside of dismissing others on assumptions alone leads to a sorry state of human affairs.

Enjoy some cockles Mushy :thup:

Tenners - I wrote a long post the other day but lost the damn thing as my internet connection dropped. I also sometimes write posts and don't submit as I feel I am whining or going over old ground.

Adrianisournumber1 wrote:I sent anwar an email just about this thread, about the idea of all getting together and trying to get to a game i think it be great to put a face to some of the names on here.


Absolutely :thup:
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby Adrianisournumber1 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:10 pm

mushy wrote:[
Adrians,
Have you thought that one of the first signs of depression is disengagement?
It might just be worth thinking about the next time you decide that some of them wont be allowed to play football.

I dont know what your qualifications are and its great that you volunteer, but you seem to be making a judgement call here based on your opinion. If that isnt the case then I wholeheartedly apologise, but thats what comes across from your post.

Negative stereotyping is common where mental health is concerned, I would have hoped that the likes of Puff were above it.
This is not to say there are not phonies , of course there are, all I am saying is that who are we to make such judgement calls?
They should be given the benefit of the doubt in my opinion.
(There is a train of thought that says that people who pretend to be mentally ill must by default be mentally ill).



Probably worth explaining more i run my first program for 5 years i had some players before i left 4 years ago that had been in my team for 3 years without even going to see a gp regarding there mental health, now the issue is one of two we play in the Sussex Disability league and we also represent our county, other than there word how can i say that these players have a disability of mental health when they have never engaged in mental health services for 3 years. The issue is we want out comes we dont want people to stay in our programs for years and years, to me it shows we a failing them our aim would be with our program and other services working as a team for individuals that they get the courage to A start volunteering for our club, B start engaging in other football clubs that have a far more social aspect to them and C helping the player to get to the stage where work is a goal.

Sadly when players only engage with us and we continually make appointments with other services and refuse to engage with them it comes to a point where we are going around in circles.
Now our program is sometimes first point contact for people, and we work with them i am trained in 1-1 support and suicide first aid (asist), but we do this on a volunteer level and 1-1 support with me is during our training sessions, i can tell you 3/4 people will come to me for 1-1 support regularly but there also engaging with services and suffer seriously with there health, paranoid schizophrenics, ptsd, bPd etc... I think a lot of these players come to us partly as we are in hours where most organisations shut evenings up until 8:30pm and weekends they have a place to come feel safe, but then we have a cycle of players that engage with no one except turn up and play, like i say we want outcomes and sometimes we have to set a time frame with players that they engage in services, that doesnt mean they have to go see a GP, or a psychiatrists we have things like healthy eating programs, recycled scheme and many others and we want them to show us they have a willingness to engage, we are not saying this is from the off but if a player is with us for over 6months we want to see some protectiveness in his recovery, and so do the people that finance me.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby mushy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:20 pm

Ahh Adrians,
I see what you are saying now, basically they are turning up just to be part of your football team where they have had no engagement with any mental health teams or even their own gps. Would that be right?
They just want a free game of football?
What do they say when they turn up?

Thanks for clarifying by the way.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby Adrianisournumber1 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:34 pm

mushy wrote:Ahh Adrians,
I see what you are saying now, basically they are turning up just to be part of your football team where they have had no engagement with any mental health teams or even their own gps. Would that be right?
They just want a free game of football?
What do they say when they turn up?

Thanks for clarifying by the way.


essentially yeah it got to the point where people just come for the footy and not what the sessions where about, that is why this program isn't not including them but saying right come on you need to engage and show it to me if you want to represent us in the league or at county level.

II have to take it on word that they are struggling with some form of mental health heal problem, it would be discriminatory of me to say they wasn't, but i also have to judge how they engage with us. Representing county even at disability level is a big deal and it would be wrong if i was sending players to represent county who show no engagement in services and just say yeah i am depressed.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby DrVenk on Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:42 pm

Adrianisournumber1 wrote:Probably worth explaining more i run my first program for 5 years i had some players before i left 4 years ago that had been in my team for 3 years without even going to see a gp regarding there mental health, now the issue is one of two we play in the Sussex Disability league and we also represent our county, [1]other than there word how can i say that these players have a disability of mental health when they have never engaged in mental health services for 3 years. The issue is we want out comes we dont want people to stay in our programs for years and years, to me it shows we a failing them our aim would be with our program and other services working as a team for individuals that they get the courage to A start volunteering for our club, B start engaging in other football clubs that have a far more social aspect to them and C helping the player to get to the stage where work is a goal.

[2]Sadly when players only engage with us and we continually make appointments with other services and refuse to engage with them it comes to a point where we are going around in circles.
Now our program is sometimes first point contact for people, and we work with them i am trained in 1-1 support and suicide first aid (asist), but we do this on a volunteer level and 1-1 support with me is during our training sessions, i can tell you 3/4 people will come to me for 1-1 support regularly but there also engaging with services and suffer seriously with there health, paranoid schizophrenics, ptsd, bPd etc... I think a lot of these players come to us partly as we are in hours where most organisations shut evenings up until 8:30pm and weekends they have a place to come feel safe, but then we have a cycle of players that engage with no one except turn up and play, like i say we want [2]outcomes and sometimes we have to set a time frame with players that they engage in services, that doesnt mean they have to go see a GP, or a psychiatrists we have things like healthy eating programs, recycled scheme and many others and we want them to show us they have a willingness to engage, we are not saying this is from the off but if a player is with us for over 6months we want to see some protectiveness in his recovery, and [2]so do the people that finance me.


What you do in your free time with these chaps is brilliant mate. I just hope I can pick your brains on a few things...

[1] I analyse the GP/Patient survey data on a regular basis (currently working with a pooled representative sample of about 4 million Brits) and I can assure you most people who report symptoms of mental health issues have never spoken to a GP. They have probably never told a single soul. Given that even a clinical psychologist will suffer from 'measurement error' when diagnosing others as suffering from a mental health, isn't that someone has said they are suffering enough for us to proceed as if they are? I'm sure you already do.

[2] I think perhaps what an outsider like me struggles to appreciate is the realities of time and resources that you have to deal with. When I was evaluating the Family Interventions Project, it was hard to see funding pulled on the basis of a family not hitting 'outcomes'. A horrible word. I know, I know - funders need proof of efficacy that their money is 'working' - I just never quite trust the metrics and tick boxes of 'outcomes' in such scenarios. The mere fact that people with self-diagnosed mental health issues are getting out of the house and playing some football is a big outcome in itself, if you ask me. On that, though, do you get a sense that for those who don't progress as expected that they do get support else where too? I'm just wondering what an exit scenario looks like and how much some individuals rely on hooking up for some footy, even if they don't quite fully engage. I guess the other aspect that hit me with the FIP were the arbitrary time frames - by month X family Y should be able to demonstrate Z; if not, they should be reviewed and possibly removed from the intervention project. But people don't respond in machine like manner to interventions. One person can show signs of improvement after one month - for others it takes years, maybe even decades. Maybe, it is a life long process of just holding it together (which is still far better than falling off the cliff).

Maybe you can't say too much, but do you feel you have enough time to work with people before you have to think about edging them out?

I'm not fishing by the way mate - I really just want to better understand the pressures and intricacies of what you and organisations like the one you volunteer for are trying to do, for we need a lot more of it :thup:
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby Adrianisournumber1 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:03 pm

[quote="DrVenk"

What you do in your free time with these chaps is brilliant mate. I just hope I can pick your brains on a few things...

[1] I analyse the GP/Patient survey data on a regular basis (currently working with a pooled representative sample of about 4 million Brits) and I can assure you most people who report symptoms of mental health issues have never spoken to a GP. They have probably never told a single soul. Given that even a clinical psychologist will suffer from 'measurement error' when diagnosing others as suffering from a mental health, isn't that someone has said they are suffering enough for us to proceed as if they are? I'm sure you already do.

We clearly do it would be discriminatory to say we didn't we also look locally at services, withing 5mins walk of where we train we have 3 organisations offering 1-1 to support and a variety of programs, the issue is we do have the FA to a degree also asking us how you can prove this, take any other disability sport this is certain classifications that you have this illness and you actually have to prove you do, yet asking someone to prove they have a mental health condition is almost impossible. So by asking them to engage in services is for a way of seeing commitment and to me a degree of prove like i say i am talking about 6 months down the line.

[2] I think perhaps what an outsider like me struggles to appreciate is the realities of time and resources that you have to deal with. When I was evaluating the Family Interventions Project, it was hard to see funding pulled on the basis of a family not hitting 'outcomes'. A horrible word. I know, I know - funders need proof of efficacy that their money is 'working' - I just never quite trust the metrics and tick boxes of 'outcomes' in such scenarios. The mere fact that people with self-diagnosed mental health issues are getting out of the house and playing some football is a big outcome in itself, if you ask me. On that, though, do you get a sense that for those who don't progress as expected that they do get support else where too? I'm just wondering what an exit scenario looks like and how much some individuals rely on hooking up for some footy, even if they don't quite fully engage. I guess the other aspect that hit me with the FIP were the arbitrary time frames - by month X family Y should be able to demonstrate Z; if not, they should be reviewed and possibly removed from the intervention project. But people don't respond in machine like manner to interventions. One person can show signs of improvement after one month - for others it takes years, maybe even decades. Maybe, it is a life long process of just holding it together (which is still far better than falling off the cliff).

The issue with funding i get is i get it from a middle organisation who has been given the money by government who say right this is what we want. For me say they want to see 4/5 new players a month, or they want to see ex amount or BME inclusion or they want to see more women engaged... so these are all areas i have to look at firstly, i am fortunate i pecifically target a big funding area in hard to reach age group in men.
They also want to see outcomes so these include, engaging in other services, 1-1 support with me, volunteering or going back to work etc... one outcome is them coming but i then get questions like "well such as such only seems to come to you for football but isnt engaging with anything else, why is this" you have to explain why and sometimes your answers just are not what these people want to hear, they need to go back to the government and say well we have hit such and such targets.

We also have to say if someone is on benefits for example for 3 years not engaging in anyway with services when they turn up to you they seem happy enough, and they frequent the local pubs of an evening (there are only 3 where we live so you see players from time to time), but make zero effort to engage in services we have to ask questions of why, it be silly not to i feel, in my own opinion it issues like this that create stigma around mental health.

I have found though that most are willing to engage in services i have supported well over 100 people over a number of years and its a handful that behave like this


Maybe you can't say too much, but do you feel you have enough time to work with people before you have to think about edging them out?

i give everyone at least 6months unless they become violent then they have 1 strike rule and then it is out.

I'm not fishing by the way mate - I really just want to better understand the pressures and intricacies of what you and organisations like the one you volunteer for are trying to do, for we need a lot more of it :thup:[/quote]
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby DrVenk on Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:19 pm

AIONO - thanks for that.

Adrianisournumber1 wrote:you have to explain why and sometimes your answers just are not what these people want to hear,


Got ya. A difficult job of preserving the funding, but doing your best by everyone that shows. Must be a very stressful balancing act.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby Adrianisournumber1 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:58 pm

Police have contacted me today regarding the historic abuse case, asking if they can call be between 9-11pm tonight to discuss it.

My guess is there not going any further, annoying as Kent KCC still havent responded to the FOI requested
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby mushy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:49 pm

You should gently remind your local police force that their failure in the past to act on accusations of abuse has led to the terrible mess we are in today.
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Re: A thread to discuss depression and other mental issues...

Postby Adrianisournumber1 on Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:05 am

mushy wrote:You should gently remind your local police force that their failure in the past to act on accusations of abuse has led to the terrible mess we are in today.


they didnt even bother to call :lol:
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