Bend it like Repka wrote:For those who support PR, Germany is proving why first past the post may be better.
They may not have a government for ages.
Brexit - the vote that reaches the parts that other votes cannot reach.
We're leading them - the EU27 - away from this habitual dictatorship that they are so accustomed to with the Nazis and Communists and Generals and Colonels and so on.
DaveWHU1964 wrote:
I was just someone who said that either way that vote went we were screwed because both sides were essentially conservative visions of the future and NEITHER did/ would have/ will work for those in this country who need and were promised hope and change. Or as someone who doesn't like the Tories do you believe that Gove/ Davis/ Johnson have the welfare of this country's disadvantaged in mind any more than Cameron and Osborne did?
That may be because either way, the whole thing was going to end badly for the UK. Disaster? We'll see. Badly? Yes. If our government genuinely felt we would be better off out and out straight away, and that there wasn't a realistic chance of us "falling off a cliff" upon leaving then there is no way we would now be considering paying them such a high divorce bill in order to cling to their coat tales for a wee bit longer.
I've never Davis - maybe you have - but it wasn't a remainer but the former head of Vote Leave who described Davis as "thick as mince" and "as lazy as a toad" so there has to at least be a bit of doubt that Davis is as you describe him ....
On the face of it that seems sensible. It is undoubtedly a point of view that Davis, we, seemingly took for granted and led to an assumption that a trade deal that suited us and them as well would be a given.
However it did not take into account that when it comes to what we and they see the EU as primarily being for then Britons are from Mars and Europeans are from Venus. This is the biggest mis-calculation we've made in this whole process. Don't take my word for it - look for articles saying how those staid, sober, German business men and women reacted to what you (and I'm sure his hapless boss and himself would have felt the same) described as a "perfectly good speech" - they mocked him and laughed in his face.
That reaction encapsulates why they are not budging and consequently we are clearly the desperate ones. He went to them remember - they didn't come to him. He needs them. Proof? We initially offered them £20 billion for our divorce bill. They apparently wanted £53 billion. They haven't changed their stance in the meantime one iota. We look like we're about to change ours radically. Not by adding a few hundred million or a couple of billion but by DOUBLING our divorce bill offer to £40 billion. That's if May and Hammond can placate their friends in cabinet of course...
You questioned my use of the phrase "all but begged". Maybe I should have just called it "desperate cajoling" because if we blink to the extent of another £20 billion then we are clearly desperate for what we evidently must feel we need from them.
Well I would rather have Brexited under Labour, but they were never going to give us a vote, so it's got to be this way. I take my responsibility for voting leave, but not for the Tory government doing it, I didn't vote for them.
There are going to be short term costs, sure. But we're protecting ourselves from the next Eurozone crisis, and I have no doubt there will be one, because I've seen nothing to suggest the culture which caused the last one has changed.
Just sounded like a load of childish nonsense between the rival campaigns. Davis is a switched on guy, he stood up for our civil liberties, which puts him above most of the vermin. I haven't met him, but I did used to live in his constituency.
This is all posturing. Look at how many of Germany's exports go to the UK. There is a mutual dependancy here. Obviously they're trying to squeeze a bit more out of us. You can't just say "they don't need us", it defies basic economic logic.
Forty seems excessive, unless they're offering a lot for it. Maybe it's time to go back and look at no deal. They really want to turn down twenty billion to spite us? I acknowledge, history shows us they might be that stupid.
DaveWHU1964 wrote:
Bendy - our first past the post system has just produced a weak, impotent, awkward marriage of convenience between the Tories and the DUP. Strong and stable it most definitely isn't.
This is the first time in my lifetime we have had such a situation. Even the last coalition was only 2 parties and worked well.
You look at the pie chart of German parties, and their different views, looks impossible to form a concensus.
DaveWHU1964 wrote:
Anyway, those ardent leave lads, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson must feel that despite what they said during the referendum that there is after all stuff that we need from the EU because if they didn't then surely they wouldn't have agreed to increase our divorce Bill ...
Like any election, there are always politicians who make wild claims about what the are going to do. If people are stupid enough to believe every word that falls out their mouths then that is their problem.
Anyone with half a brain would have realised there would have been a price to pay.
Just as we can keep quoting those two toffs, there were plenty on the remain side who rolled out their own bull****.
I saw the latest ant-Brexit assault yesterday. Apparently money was paid to pro leave organisations to spread the word and despite this being investigate once it's going to be looked at again.
Let's just call the whole thing illegal and carry on as usual.
They don't care what they say and will try anything. This is how much they respect democracy....
I saw the latest ant-Brexit assault yesterday. Apparently money was paid to pro leave organisations to spread the word and despite this being investigate once it's going to be looked at again.
Let's just call the whole thing illegal and carry on as usual.
They don't care what they say and will try anything. This is how much they respect democracy....
Greatest Cockney Rip Off wrote:
So you think the answer is to just open the doors to the country and let everyone in?
No. I'd rather that East London didn't look like Bangladesh, but that isn't down to the EU.
My view - the EU went on a track I prefer they would have avoided during the 90s. The time to leave was before that. We are simply now too tied to it to remove ourselves at any reasonable cost. The benefits of leaving are, IMO, not going to be enough to compensate. Jam tomorrow tends never to arrive in the quantities advertised.
Furthermore the politicians leading this have proved to be poorly prepared and fundamentally misunderstand the EU, it's processes and it's position.
They will pay more and still get reamed by the EU.
They will punish and punish if not to only teach other countries not to mess with their undemocratic, federalist dream.
The people will never have their say because they know best...and it doesn't matter what rubbish is spoken, their retention and extension of power is all it is about.
Slightly off topic, but in a related note demonstrating the further diminishing of Britain's power and influence, we will no longer have a judge on the ICJ panel.
wolf359 wrote:Don't give them a penny just walk away
I am shocked that such a fantastic solution was staring us in the face all along. Well, that's Brexit solved, all we need to do now is work out what to do with the £40bn we were going to hand over.
wolf359 wrote:Don't give them a penny just walk away
Walking away would be absolutely catastrophic for the UK and it's general population. Why on earth would you support the worst outcome for this country?
Irrons wrote:
Walking away would be absolutely catastrophic for the UK and it's general population. Why on earth would you support the worst outcome for this country?
It would require the most adjustment but there is no way to know it would be the worst outcome.
Not one penny more than what we committed to as part of the cuŕent budget cycle .
Given how they seem to think they will be better off without us they should be able to chip in a few euros each extra to keep the gravy train rolling .
Poland, Romania, Hungary can easily afford to cough up extra . Greece and Spain as well . Italy? Their economy is a powerhouse , surely they have a few quid tucked away.
One meeting, attended by one UK government minister, and tell them how it's going to be .
Also , a hard border in Ireland, and withdraw from NATO.
And at the end of the meeting tell them to f*** off .
That would be my approach only I would start with...
Is can be nice, friendly and easy or it can't ....your choice.
We can walk away with no deal and there are plenty of other countries to trade with.
I just don't get the scaremongering from our remainers nor the bully tactics from the EU.
If we have some financial legacy then clear the books if not .....nothing.
There is a deal to be done but the EU's commitment to their no borders, not so free trade, we'll control everything jamboree makes it unlikely they will compromise. At some point we will have to walk away or get our pants pulled down.
the pink palermo wrote:Given how they seem to think they will be better off without us they should be able to chip in a few euros each extra to keep the gravy train rolling.
