27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

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Harry Hound
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by Harry Hound »

sendô wrote:Final death toll given as 71.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42008279
With all the subletting that went on there, with many of them undocumented migrants I don't see how the authorities could be sure on the actual death toll.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by hammerdivone »

Harry Hound wrote:With all the subletting that went on there, with many of them undocumented migrants I don't see how the authorities could be sure on the actual death toll.
Counting the bodies?
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by sendô »

Five key safety breaches identified at Grenfell according to a leaked report.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/201 ... -grenfell/

- Fire wouldn't have spread beyond source flat without cladding refurb between 2014 and 2016.
- 15cm gaps between window frames and concrete columns that was plugged with non-fire rated material that acted as an accelerant.
- Cavity barriers between original concrete building fabric and aluminium over cladding were too small or not properly fitted.
- Insulation fitted to the outside of the building was actually combustible!
- No door closers on fire doors, so as tenants fled doors were left open thus fire compartmentation failed.

This is expected to have a far ranging effect in the construction industry, with a revolution in the way we check and monitor quality such that it will be like the strides made in construction safety over the last 20 years.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by Hummer_I_mean_Hammer »

sendô wrote: it will be like the strides made in construction safety over the last 20 years.
Has there really been much improvement?
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by Etonhammer »

In site set up, management and safety....... yeah loads in the MCG and medium sized projects.

Even the small developers have benefited in the change in approach over the years but some of them are still poor
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by prophet:marginal »

sendô wrote:Five key safety breaches identified at Grenfell according to a leaked report.
One, maybe two, of these breaches would have been bad enough.

Five, of that nature, is approaching outrageous, on any building, still more so on a residential one.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by sendô »

Hummer_I_mean_Hammer wrote:Has there really been much improvement?
Yes, it's completely beyond recognition from where it was even when I started out 18 years ago.

The way work is planned, the way sites are laid out, tidied, the money spent on training, items of plant and equipment, safety equipment and so forth is miles better today.

Certainly with medium to large scale projects and companies.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by hammerdivone »

sendô wrote:Yes, it's completely beyond recognition from where it was even when I started out 18 years ago.

The way work is planned, the way sites are laid out, tidied, the money spent on training, items of plant and equipment, safety equipment and so forth is miles better today.

Certainly with medium to large scale projects and companies.
I've been in the game over 30 years and it's changed beyond all recognition from then, pretty much across the board.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by Hummer_I_mean_Hammer »

^^^^^

Yeah I get all that, I have seen a load of changes and have worked on and off in the construction industry for over 20 years myself.

But the question still stands, has the accident rate been reduced and more importantly, have there been less injuries? Are there stats to back this up?

Genuine question.

TIA.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by Tenbury »

With all the usual considerations re BBC journalism, the Panorama expose , somewhat superseded by other news, is extraordinary. It takes a lot to shock an ageing cynic, but the revelations,that it would seem haven't been denied by Celotex, beggar belief.
The consequences in terms of legal proceedings ( the corporate manslaughter thing will inevitably come into play again), and in terms of cost, this stuffs all over the place, are immense.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by sendô »

I missed it, but I've not missed the fact that nearly a year on nothing has happened re this, nothing has changed, no proper inquiry findings, no blame and everything carrying on as before seems to be the order of the day?
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by EvilC »

The inquiry is underway, however instead of working out what the cause was they are listening to relatives of the victims. It is desperately sad, but I don't see that letting these people speak is going to work out what happened. I'd have thought that there should be a separate forum for something like that.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by Tenbury »

Basically the programme stated that the product was NOT cleared to use on refurbs (and it has been all over the place) Celotex knew this , but still sold it and didn't tell the builders. I think they would have already sued were it not true. It would seem that they have knowingly put endless high rise dwellers and emergency service personnel at risk.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by east_ham »

sendô wrote:I missed it, but I've not missed the fact that nearly a year on nothing has happened re this, nothing has changed, no proper inquiry findings, no blame and everything carrying on as before seems to be the order of the day?
Given that the inquiry has just started , how can there be findings yet?
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by ironsonthebrain »

Tenbury wrote:Basically the programme stated that the product was NOT cleared to use on refurbs (and it has been all over the place) Celotex knew this , but still sold it and didn't tell the builders. I think they would have already sued were it not true. It would seem that they have knowingly put endless high rise dwellers and emergency service personnel at risk.

So will they be liable for corporate manslaughter charges?
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by sendô »

east_ham wrote:Given that the inquiry has just started , how can there be findings yet?
The inquiry started in September last year, remember the furore over them appointing Sir Martin Moore-Bick?

It's expected to drag well into next year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44158516

Fingers crossed there's no more tower block fires between now and then.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by east_ham »

sendô wrote: The inquiry started in September last year, remember the furore over them appointing Sir Martin Moore-Bick?

It's expected to drag well into next year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44158516

Fingers crossed there's no more tower block fires between now and then.

my bad , I must have misheard about families starting this week.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by Hummer_I_mean_Hammer »

EvilC wrote:The inquiry is underway, however instead of working out what the cause was they are listening to relatives of the victims. It is desperately sad, but I don't see that letting these people speak is going to work out what happened. I'd have thought that there should be a separate forum for something like that.
Totally agree, the enquiry should be purely an unemotional exercise, bringing in the families with all their baggage is not going to help anyone.
I think it will simply become a political football now, with various parties pushing their agenda onto others for their own personal gain.
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by Tenbury »

No.
The bean counters have to learn the real meaning of 'cost.'
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Re: 27 storey London Tower block Fire -Latimer road

Post by sendô »

Well it looks like they've finished making the relatives re-live the horrors of the fire and are down to getting into the detail now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44351567

First expert primarily blaming the cladding, and stating stay put instruction went on too long and that evac order should have been earlier.
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