Brexit referendum result aftermath

[billybondsballbag]

You've just effectively doubled the cost of the civil service, currently around £11bn p/a.

Not necessarily. Progress would be quicker, efficiency savings greater (as a result of faster movement from input to delivery) and much of the cost of the institutions would exist regardless of additional staffing; if West Ham were to put on two back-to-back extra games for testimonials, you wouldn't work out the cost to be [(yearly cost of running WHU/38)*2], as the cost of running the club exists regardless of putting on a couple extra games. The same could occur within the EU or UK government.

[1011Iron]

The public consciousness is perennially in flux and can be swayed by the right set of words, the right images, the right slogans

We are at a crossroads where we can choose to give in to fear of the other and revert to our most base, tribal impulses, or we can resist the fear and forge ahead in an attempt to unite. If you want to give in to fear and tribalism, that's entirely your choice.

Yes. We must be careful not to fall for unsubstantiated slogans and false ideas designed to influence our thinking.

"Choose unity and humanity, not fear and racism".

[sendô]

Not necessarily. Progress would be quicker, efficiency savings greater (as a result of faster movement from input to delivery) and much of the cost of the institutions would exist regardless of additional staffing; if West Ham were to put on two back-to-back extra games for testimonials, you wouldn't work out the cost to be [(yearly cost of running WHU/38)*2], as the cost of running the club exists regardless of putting on a couple extra games. The same could occur within the EU or UK government.

BBBB, if you're talking about running 24/7, then you need a night shift. Assuming your staff levels at night are the same as days, and ignoring paying night shift staff extra, you're doubling your labour costs.

It'd be like West Ham having a lunch time kick off and a midnight kick off - they'd need two teams, whichever way you look at it.

[Hummer_I_mean_Hammer]

It'd be like West Ham having a lunch time kick off and a midnight kick off - they'd need two teams, whichever way you look at it.

Two sets of injury lists is more West Ham in my mind.

[westham,eggyandchips]

I wonder if the government are making a mess of this on purpose just to prove a point.

[sendô]

No, they're just incompetent.

[666 hammer]

Funny how leaving the EU is seen as hating Europe by remain. I love Europe and the people. The best part of the world in my opinion is Europe. Because of the different cultures not because we are all trying to be the same.
I guess most remainers think the British empire was bad, but are happy to live under a new federal state.
Then the SNP. Don't want brexit but want to leave the UK. They should support brexit to prove leaving is possible. Something I am sure many snp support now has doubts over.

[Monkeybubbles]

Funny how leaving the EU is seen as hating Europe by remain. I love Europe and the people. The best part of the world in my opinion is Europe. Because of the different cultures not because we are all trying to be the same.
I guess most remainers think the British empire was bad, but are happy to live under a new federal state.
Then the SNP. Don't want brexit but want to leave the UK. They should support brexit to prove leaving is possible. Something I am sure many snp support now has doubts over.

You're comparing the British Empire to the EU?

[666 hammer]

I see the EU has similar interests as the Empire. Formed out of war with the idea to unite people under a common flag.

[Bend it like Repka]

If you think that mass surveillance and political manipulation by unaccountable figures isn't already going on at an unprecedented scale by individuals, governments and corporate interests outside of the EU, you're shockingly naive.

I know exactly what is happening in the world, I don't need a lesson thank you.

The EU may at least act as a bulwark between those who would seek to remove human/workers' rights for financial gain, and it would do so with more transparency than, say, our secret service, Leave.EU or Facebook. Regarding what's best for us, I think we've shown over time that we as a nation do or at least lean toward whatever Murdoch, Rothermere and other unaccountable corporate figures with control of the media want us to do; it's difficult to make a case for us knowing what's best for us when we clearly make crap decisions, time after time after time. The public consciousness is perennially in flux and can be swayed by the right set of words, the right images, the right slogans, and those in power are aware of that and justifiably terrified of what could happen if every state goes the same way as the US, Russia, Turkey, the Philippines, etc., and elects a tyrannical demagogue/autocrat who promises them the world without having the power to deliver.

Again, that is not some robust defence of the EU, but more a listing of what is wrong with the world. The only thing I can glimmer is that you seem confident that an EU superstate will somehow be less controlling than somewhere than Russia. I'd counter that by saying the EU has been at it for a lot less time than Russia, and is more bothered about the image of democracy than someone like Putin.

It's not ****ing rocket science. If you think the leaveophiles are upset now, wait a few years until the economic **** really hits the fan and they start looking for scapegoats, because I can promise you that there will be someone in power who will deliver a scapegoat to them on a plate.

We are at a crossroads where we can choose to give in to fear of the other and revert to our most base, tribal impulses, or we can resist the fear and forge ahead in an attempt to unite. If you want to give in to fear and tribalism, that's entirely your choice.

You seem to confuse anti Federalism with tribalism. It's not a question of scapegoating, I just believe that your notion that people in Bulgaria, Norway and Greece can truly unite in a common economic and social manner is to use your word, naive.

[Bend it like Repka]

Perfection doesn't exist, so that's an unrealistic aim. To improve it for starters, however, I would try to improve the speed of bureaucracy by essentially running it as a 24/7 institution, as I would with our government; we live in a 24/7 world and governance should reflect that.

Good luck with that. The EU is a bureaucratic supertanker.

Let's look at the decamping to Strasbourg at huge cost to the EU taxpayer. Everyone both within and outside the EU accepts it is a farce. Before the referendum Paxman interviewed one of the major EU officials about it who indeed agreed it should be stopped. However in his words, it would require a new treaty, and no one wants more treaties. So on we plough, wasting hundreds of millions, because apparently knocking up a word document with 27 spaces for signatures is too complex a task.

The EU is too big, too unwieldy, too full of jobs for the boys. For 20 years I have heard the platitudes about how it needs to change, be reformed from within. Nothing has happened so far, nor will it until some major catastrophe befalls it.

I'd also encourage an EU-endorsed curriculum which extensively covers critical thinking, science and most importantly history, particularly of that in the EU, so we don't repeat it through our ignorance...

Hmmm. I'm sure that would well received in Greek classrooms.

[billybondsballbag]

thank you.

You're welcome.

[Sarfend Hammer]

I actually understand why Remainers see Brexiteers as Europe haters. Many of them have bought into the idea of a Federal Europe and see Brexit as a inward looking nationalist movement. This continues to be a blind spot for much of our political class. They don't seem to understand that you can believe in the nation state and still be open for business on a European and Global level.

I never bought into the idea that in order to trade and interact on a globally we should have to surrender representation to supra-national bureaucracy that is largely driven by Germany's economic interests. For me Brexit is about representative democracy, self determination and sovereignty. It doesn't preclude engagement with Europe but does allow autonomy to engage trade on a global basis.

[666 hammer]

An old story and could be in another thread but shows how other member states follow EU rules or not to suit their own ends.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.dw.c ... a-40770093" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[666 hammer]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.rt.c ... iracy/amp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And another about france selling contraband to Russia. Did the EU do anything?
Lol

[Tenbury]

The EU is too big, too unwieldy, too full of jobs for the boys. For 20 years I have heard the platitudes about how it needs to change, be reformed from within. Nothing has happened so far, nor will it until some major catastrophe befalls it

You make reasoned and coherent points, though to be fair, that's a criticism you could level at every tier of government ( I find myself reading through a lot of these posts and mentally substituting 'Malvern Hills District Council' for 'EU' ). Do we have a problem with governance per se?

[EvilC]

Hmmm. I'm sure that would well received in Greek classrooms.

The Greeks can't admit that their main problem is The Greeks. It doesn't mean you shouldn't tell them so.

[666 hammer]

billybondsballbag wrote:
I'd also encourage an EU-endorsed curriculum which extensively covers critical thinking, science and most importantly history, particularly of that in the EU, so we don't repeat it through our ignorance...

So a EU endorsed curriculum would provide critical thinking over its own existence but teach ultimately that it is the best thing ever.
Sounds similar to the USSR and their critical thinking and take on history.
The ignorance is not taking leave concerns seriously and trying to brain wash people into agreement.

[Bend it like Repka]

You make reasoned and coherent points, though to be fair, that's a criticism you could level at every tier of government ( I find myself reading through a lot of these posts and mentally substituting 'Malvern Hills District Council' for 'EU' ). Do we have a problem with governance per se?

The world is full of bureaucracy and inefficiency. I've known of numerous instances of waste at a local level.

It's a simple concept that the bigger an organisation gets the harder it is to control and manage, and the more waste and paperwork is created.

It is hard enough to hold local councils to account. Then we have to try and do it at a national level. Now we have another layer spread across 27 nations. It's just another tier of expensive management full of people justifying their existence.

I have listened to numerous interviews and debates on the EU literally over decades. Every pro remain activist, MP or flag waver ever question accepted the EU needs improvement and reform. Even Blair has spoke frequently about the need for change. Nothing has happened in 20 years. We've had the Greek crisis, the Euro crisis, Brexit and not a flicker. Cameron sat with them and asked for change. Nothing.

As I have always said, as a trading block it was a good idea, but now it is just another layer that is trying to be something for everyone.

[Monkeybubbles]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.rt.c ... iracy/amp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And another about france selling contraband to Russia. Did the EU do anything?
Lol

WTF are you on about?

That piece is about an unsubstantiated rumour (as stated in the piece itself). What exactly would you want the EU to do?