Brexit referendum result aftermath
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- Junco Partner
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
The indicative vote idea is the only way out of May's mess now. Whether she stays or not is largely irrelevant but whats is of paramount importance is that Parliament takes hold of the wheel from now on.
The Tories have proven themselves incapable of delivering something they've whinged and moaned about for 40 years....but didn't ever bother with a workable delivery plan.
A series of transferable votes for the MPs to get it down to the one workable option and go with that.
Imagine May's deal will be in the running right to the end, but her incompetently negotiated backstop will prevent it winning.
The Tories have proven themselves incapable of delivering something they've whinged and moaned about for 40 years....but didn't ever bother with a workable delivery plan.
A series of transferable votes for the MPs to get it down to the one workable option and go with that.
Imagine May's deal will be in the running right to the end, but her incompetently negotiated backstop will prevent it winning.
- York Ham(mer)
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
The threat of a few bent spoons in the No.10 kitchen might well bring Theresa May to her senses. :lol:Samba wrote:FFS!
NOW F**CKING URI GELLER'S GETTING INVOLVED!!!
The c**t's going to stop me getting bendy bananas..
- Big George
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
One way or another, they will be able to make money from both scenarios. Rapacious gits that they arewestham,eggyandchips wrote: The ERG need to ask themselves if they want May's deal or Corbyn as PM?
- bubbles1966
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
Whitters wrote:I’m one of those signatories from abroad, as are many of my friends. We’re all perfectly entitled to vote in the U.K., and many of us still pay taxes and have interests there. Our ability to work & travel abroad is also impacted by this, so we have just as much right to vote as anyone else.
No doubt, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's incredibly easy to muck about with these petitions.sicknote wrote:same as whitters
this affects ex pats as much as anyone
Anyone can claim to be anyone; anyone can claim to have a legitimate voting entitlement; anyone can follow the Tower Hamlets democratic model - vote often, vote with many identities.
- bubbles1966
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
At this stage, once internal politics are taken account of, I can't see them agreeing anything.Junco Partner wrote:The indicative vote idea is the only way out of May's mess now. Whether she stays or not is largely irrelevant but whats is of paramount importance is that Parliament takes hold of the wheel from now on.
The Tories have proven themselves incapable of delivering something they've whinged and moaned about for 40 years....but didn't ever bother with a workable delivery plan.
A series of transferable votes for the MPs to get it down to the one workable option and go with that.
Imagine May's deal will be in the running right to the end, but her incompetently negotiated backstop will prevent it winning.
The ERG/DUP and the SNP/Greens/Plaid/Lib Dems cancel each other out number wise. These groups are largely intractable.
Therefore, the movement has to be within the Tories and/or Labour.
I've seen nothing that suggests to me that either will budge. Only the credible threat of no deal holds out any hope of them actually realising they need to make a decision.
- Junco Partner
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
Time to put it back to the people then?
"Winning" deal vs Stay As We Are.
With a transferable vote system for the MPs options you do eventually get to a single "winner".
"Winning" deal vs Stay As We Are.
With a transferable vote system for the MPs options you do eventually get to a single "winner".
- bubbles1966
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
Remain was knocked out in the qualifying round. A choice of leaves. That's it.Junco Partner wrote:Time to put it back to the people then?
"Winning" deal vs Stay As We Are
Most of the constituencies in this country voted leave. Even now most of them are not embroiled in this heavily London-centric effort to change the vote. Something like 1 in 5 of these 'signatures' come from around just 65 constituencies - mostly wealthy London or uni constituencies.
- sendô
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
It's ironic, isn't it. Doing what the "money" tells them to do is normally modus operandi for the Tories.
- Junco Partner
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
I don't disagree, another leave v remain vote would be divisive and likely hijacked by meglomaniac knobs like Farage and Blair, but if the log-jam continues then it is inevitable.bubbles1966 wrote:Remain was knocked out in the qualifying round. A choice of leaves. That's it.
Most of the constituencies in this country voted leave. Even now most of them are not embroiled in this heavily London-centric effort to change the vote...
So we need a way to find an acceptable Brexit.
MPs are to rank the 6 or 7 clear options in preference 1 to 7, using a transferable vote model their 2nd preferences get redistributed when there 1st preference comes last, then 3rd preferences get distributed when the next last placed option emeregs....until 1 single option is left.
Essential this a a total free, unwhipped vote, as all the others up to this point have been distorted by whippings and factions voting tactically...time that all stops.
Then hit the pause button for as long as possible, get working on implementing that option.
Options are:
1) No deal
2) May's deal
3) Revoke A50 and take the consequences
4) Mays deal but with customs union
5) Softer Brexit with SM & CU at it's heart
6) Harder Brexit with trade agreement to follow
7) Another referendum
1 to 7, whats your preference Mr and Mrs MP?
A rational nation would have done this around July 2016 of course, but we had entitled 'born-to-rule' Tories in charge. And absolutely definitely should have done it after the 2017 election....but we got a robotic, stubborn Tory in charge.
- bubbles1966
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
It's broader than that.sendô wrote:It's ironic, isn't it. Doing what the "money" tells them to do is normally modus operandi for the Tories.
3000 sign a petition in Labour Edmonton, 20000 do in Labour Hampstead.
3000 sign it in Tory Romford, 11000 do in Tory South West Surrey.
Tory/Labour is irrelevant except in the House of Commons game playing. It's remain and leave. It's about who wins out of the current settlement, who is doing alright and who ain't.
It's the biggest argument about the set up of our society since the end of the second world war.
There are Labour constituencies in Grimsby, Hull, Wolverhampton with barely 2000 signatories, while Hackney, Dulwich, Islington etc are racking up c.20000 a piece. Sooner or later, those voters are going to realise their values are very different and that they are being paid lip service.
The same applies to a lesser extent with the Tories when Thurrock, Clacton, Hornchurch etc are compared to Sth Cambridgeshire, SW Surrey.
Disregarding electors' votes in a referendum they 'won', will spread a mix of apathy and anger and most probably further fracture what's already in place..
- dodger
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
Why are you (and most leavers) so against a new vote which has remain on the possible options? If you’re so certain that the country wishes to leave the EU, what are you afraid of? Surely the most sought after leave option would win in a transferable vote scenario, if that is indeed the will of the people?bubbles1966 wrote:
Remain was knocked out in the qualifying round. A choice of leaves. That's it.
Could it be, instead, that actually you’re not so certain that every single opinion poll over the last year has been wrong, and the millions of petition signers and marchers from ‘London and uni constituencies’ are not in fact now in the majority?
- bubbles1966
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
1) We've already had the vote.dodger wrote:Why are you (and most leavers) so against a new vote which has remain on the possible options? If you’re so certain that the country wishes to leave the EU, what are you afraid of? Surely the most sought after leave option would win in a transferable vote scenario, if that is indeed the will of the people?
Could it be, instead, that actually you’re not so certain that every single opinion poll over the last year has been wrong, and the millions of petition signers and marchers from ‘London and uni constituencies’ are not in fact now in the majority?
2) We can't keep having votes every 5 minutes, just because an opinion poll says something - we have elections for changing policies - 80+% of voters backed those with Leave manifestos a year after the referendum;
3) It should be obvious to everyone that repeating a referendum straight away just because the losing side does not like it would give the SNP all the excuse they need;
4) What are we going to do if we Remain and then the 'polls' (as wonderfully reliable as they are) start to say we want to leave again? This is bound to happen the minute the spectacularly benign economics the vote has delivered fade and we again find ourselves exposed to euronews, which the media has been keeping out of sight. Have another referendum? How about a 4th, then a 5th?
5) How are we going to deal with the domestic fallout? The idea that everything will stabilise is really fanciful.The nationalist SNP 'lost' a referendum and then gained absolute dominance in Scotland as they were perceived to 'stand up for Scotland'. Why imagine that England and Wales won't think and vote similarly?
- Danny's Dyer Acting
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
See bubbles is back to his "votes don't matter depending on where you're from" shtick.
I say that's fair but we also remove votes from anyone over 50 or without a university degree. This grey haired and uneducated -centric movement to remove us from the EU has to be stopped.
I say that's fair but we also remove votes from anyone over 50 or without a university degree. This grey haired and uneducated -centric movement to remove us from the EU has to be stopped.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
Me too Whitters. I’ve spent two days this week getting up at 4am and queuing for hours at my local prefecture in France to get my carte de séjoure (long term residency card). I had to provide mountains of paperwork but it’s been worth it to keep my EU rights and for peace of mind that a no deal Brexit won’t affect me.Whitters wrote:I’m one of those signatories from abroad, as are many of my friends. We’re all perfectly entitled to vote in the U.K., and many of us still pay taxes and have interests there. Our ability to work & travel abroad is also impacted by this, so we have just as much right to vote as anyone else.
- sendô
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
Or every 3 years when the government has proven itself completely incapable of enacting the vague direction given in the last vote.bubbles1966 wrote: 2) We can't keep having votes every 5 minutes,
- Rays Rock
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
Quite simply because we don’t want our vote eroded. And I genuinely believe that democracy will be betrayed by staging another vote that has any of the same options on it so soon.dodger wrote:]
Why are you (and most leavers) so against a new vote which has remain on the possible options?
Put quite simply, democracy means the majority wins. If we don’t abide that rule, then what do we have ?
Why do you want remain to be put on thr ballot paper when it was rejected last time ?
- Whitters
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
Rays Rock wrote: Why do you want remain to be put on thr ballot paper when it was rejected last time ?
Well, to quote chief brexiteer David Davis
‘If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy”.
- IronworksDave
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
What do you expect to gain from a new vote? Unless 50% of the electorate vote one way or the other it will always be a minority decision (Leave got 34% last time around) that will enable the losing side to claim that the 'majority' didn't choose to Leave / Remain and so we will be exactly back where we are now ... it's the problem when a third of the country doesn't bother to vote.dodger wrote:Why are you (and most leavers) so against a new vote which has remain on the possible options? If you’re so certain that the country wishes to leave the EU, what are you afraid of? Surely the most sought after leave option would win in a transferable vote scenario, if that is indeed the will of the people?
Could it be, instead, that actually you’re not so certain that every single opinion poll over the last year has been wrong, and the millions of petition signers and marchers from ‘London and uni constituencies’ are not in fact now in the majority?
Remain clearly can't accept a Leave vote, and 100% guaranteed Leave will not accept a Remain vote ...
So what does anyone think a second referendum will resolve? ... whichever side gets 35% of the vote the other side won't accept it ... am I wrong?
Less than 5% singing a petition and less than 2% marching in London ... as much as it's good TV it means very little ... more people watch football or go fishing every weekend, so should they get to decide who runs the country? we have elections to decide these things not mob rule.
- billybondsballbag
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
HilariousIronworksDave wrote:we have elections to decide these things not mob rule.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath
He's always angry ... no wonder he bent all them spoonsSamba wrote:FFS!
NOW F**CKING URI GELLER'S GETTING INVOLVED!!!
The c**t's going to stop me getting bendy bananas..
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