West Ham Utd 1-2 Arsenal (28/12/14)

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Irrons
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by Irrons »

And yes we could have had a penalty for the push on Sakho and it was a clearcut one for the challenge on Amalfitano. The ref bottled both
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by Kiwi Iron »

Technically Sakho is in breach of the offside rule if he puts the keeper in two minds as to whether he will play the ball or not while standing in an offside position, this could delay the keepers decision on whether to cover the original flight of the ball or any potential shot/deflection from Sakho. This would be deemed as gaining an advantage from being in an offside position.

The speed of the shot and the actions of the player as the ball passes him would affect this subjective decision.

In reality just toss a coin for the decision cause the refereeing is so inconsistent.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by il_martello_di_genovesi »

Kiwi Iron wrote:Technically Sakho is in breach of the offside rule if he puts the keeper in two minds as to whether he will play the ball or not while standing in an offside position, this could delay the keepers decision on whether to cover the original flight of the ball or any potential shot/deflection from Sakho. This would be deemed as gaining an advantage from being in an offside position.

The speed of the shot and the actions of the player as the ball passes him would affect this subjective decision.

In reality just toss a coin for the decision cause the refereeing is so inconsistent.
Whatever mind Szczesny was in, he wasn't going to save it. Sakho could've stood there and swung his cock around, it wouldn't have made a difference to what Szczesny could've done.

Sakho didn't attempt to touch the ball, he clearly moved out the way.

Very poor decision.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by Kiwi Iron »

I probably agree, just discussing the rule is all.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by il_martello_di_genovesi »

Kiwi Iron wrote:I probably agree, just discussing the rule is all.
No, I know you were, but what you've put there clearly shows why the goal should've stood.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by Monkeybubbles »

jacko wrote:Is it me or is Downing poor in the games against the top teams?

Absolutely. Love him and everything, but the phrase FLAT TRACK BULLY springs to mind.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by simonirons »

I don't know why I watch motd, arsenal had a couple of good spells which then go on to make the highlights reel. - arsenal didn't play well today, they hung on for dear life. :fsake:
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by Kialos »

With the line up and tactics the result was as I expected TBH. We gave it a go but Carroll was very easily taken out the game, again, and even Song was below his usual high standards. I would have taken both off. No problem with Nolan coming on for 20 mins, and did well I thought and Valencia to play with Sakho. Adrian was excellent, my MOTM. Amalfitano also played well. I'd be looking to offload O'Brien 00:01 on 1st January.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by WHUJohn »

Kiwi Iron wrote:Technically Sakho is in breach of the offside rule if he puts the keeper in two minds as to whether he will play the ball or not while standing in an offside position, this could delay the keepers decision on whether to cover the original flight of the ball or any potential shot/deflection from Sakho. This would be deemed as gaining an advantage from being in an offside position.

The speed of the shot and the actions of the player as the ball passes him would affect this subjective decision.

In reality just toss a coin for the decision cause the refereeing is so inconsistent.
Sakho wouldn't have put the GK in two minds as he wasn't in his line of sight, but was 3 to 4 yards to the GK's right.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by Whufc06 »

To be honest I have no problem with the disallowed goal, it's clear interfering for me. The problem I have is that I've seen a number of goals this season given that are similar. No consistency, that's the problem
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by kaybee15 »

speculator wrote:Anyone who booed Nolan on is a **** in my book. Save it for when he throws Cole on.
You slag off CC at every opportunity, even using Ron Atkinson's "lazy n****r" to describe him at one point, yet you're happy to celebrate his goals. All of this is on the match threads.

Turn it in you hypocritical sap.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by The Old Mile End »

It was a good match, we did okay, and we were unlucky to lose. Can’t fault the effort from our lads out there – but Arsenal did have that extra bit of quality and were always threatening on the break. We will face a torrid time when we visit the Emirates.

Some will complain about the referee – but to me it was a cert penalty (what on earth was Reid thinking?). As for the disallowed “goal” – well either Sammy Lee was offside or he wasn’t. To me, he was – so were three of ours in or around the six yard box, two of whom dodged the shot. Had that been us, and the goal given (like it was in 1981) people would have remembered it for so long some posters on here would give it their poster name!

The biggest disappointment to me was the taking off of Sakho for Valencia at the hour mark. We had just got ourselves back in the game and were looking very threatening. I saw Sakho as being the main cause of that threat. I felt it was just a matter of time before we got level.

It was also the realisation that what we thought was the Renaissance was actually Plan B. The early season flair, pace, change of style, tactics, formation, open attacking play with young fast forwards – was simply a make do until Carroll comes back. The fact that the manager has given him every possible piece of game time, means he clearly sees Carroll as plan A. We are going to use a battering ram, and leave the rest to attack with the splinters they pick up. How innovative our training sessions must be!

Sadly, we are not going to see the Sakho-Valencia combination unless Carroll is injured or suspended, or there is nothing to play for in the managers eyes. It’s such a shame because they will not be with us for all that long relatively speaking.

It was good to see Morgan play such a good game. Full of attack and width, he does give us so many options and he is always looking to bring others into play. I doubt he will start against West Brom though. We will probably revert to the narrow formation, and rely on the full backs to get up for width when required. It’s probably the best way to enforce Plan A.

You have made me cynical Sam. Please bring back Plan B.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by paulthebubble »

Old Mile End-Completely agree about the Plan B bit. We were more dynamic and unpredictable earlier in the season with Sakho, Valencia. I too thought Carroll was coming off instead of Sakho. Now that Sam has more choices to make he's falling back to his trusted picks.

Sammy Lee was 100% offside in the LC Final. The rule was different then. If you were in an offside position, even if you were standing next to the corner flag, you were offside.
This call is the hardest for a lino to make. You see that the player is in an offside position but you're not sure if the player was interfering or not. This is where the referee needs to determine if the keeper's vision of the ball was blocked. The ref bottled it in my opinion. Sakho wasn't standing in front of Szxzlny who knew he had no chance to stop the shot so he put his hand up calling for offside. It's very unlikely the goal would have been disallowed if say Rooney hit the shot and Adrian put his hand up.
I hate losing to these cheating arse and chelsea scum. I saw Fabregas got a yellow for diving. He acted like he was a victim of a horrible injustice.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by bullyhammer »

I also agree with Old Mile End. I had hoped that Carroll, when he came back from injury, would be our plan B, coming on to charge around and scare defences when plan A wasn't working. Hopefully Sam will come to that conclusion, although it will be, if it happens, after AFCON.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by sutts07 »

Nice post Old Mile End totally agree with most if not all of that. Biggest disappointment's of the game for me were the penalty going against us, the switch off for their 2nd and the Sakho sub... In that order.

The Song 'goal' was offside in my eyes as our players were slower to react to the clearance and should have got themselves back onside quicker to cut out any doubt. What I do have an issue with though is the feeling I have that had it been a 'goal' scored by Arsenal, Chelsea or a team from Manchester against us then it would have stood.

The penalty was massively unlucky but not unfair in my eyes. Reid did hang a leg out and it did cause their player to trip over. Intentional or not, it was a trip and a penalty. Again, the main issue I have here is that we had one or two fouls committed against us in the box that I also feel would have been given as penalties had it been a nippy little player from the above mentioned clubs going over at the hands of someone like Collins.

The inconsistencies do seem to stack up in favour of the so called big teams more often than not.

As for us, I don't think we are cute enough or clinical enough to be competing at the top level of the game yet anyway. We had chances and didn't take them. We had possession and we had attacks but we were not as committed to them as Arsenal were.

Arsenal and Chelsea both came at us with pace and conviction when they came at us. I didn't see that from us in either game really. Part of this may well be the fact that we have Carroll leading the line. I think Sam has a really big problem on his hands as Carroll is clearly his number one front man but not necessarily the teams.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by Iron Mark »

A few games ago Spurs first goal against Burnley started with a pass to Eriksen who was offside. Ball went closer to him than it did to any of our players yesterday. The entire Burnley defence stopped, but nothing given as he was not "interfering". Officials got praise from the media for that.

Does the offside law allow that or do officials make it up as they go along?
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by shammy »

Is it me or is Downing poor in the games against the top teams?
Everyone struggles against top teams thats how they become top teams.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by The Old Mile End »

sutts07 wrote:The inconsistencies do seem to stack up in favour of the so called big teams more often than not.
Arsenal and Chelsea both came at us with pace and conviction when they came at us. I didn't see that from us in either game really. Part of this may well be the fact that we have Carroll leading the line. I think Sam has a really big problem on his hands as Carroll is clearly his number one front man but not necessarily the teams.
Would totally agree with you there sutts. And yet poor old Mourinho thinks there is a campaign against his side!! Just like old Alec used to do - and I believe this influences referees.

Back to the offside - I know the rules are different these days, and do agree about the inconsistencies of it all. However, in this case, Sakho has effectively played the ball by opening his legs and letting it through. The dummy could (and should) be construed as playing the ball without touching it. Perhaps had he stood aside and let it pass, it would have stood. Only the ref can say - and on another day another ref might have given a different decision.

Regarding the Carroll set up: It's clear that he prefers a certain type of cross. You can see him getting stuck into his team mates when he doesn't get the balls he wants. In earlier games we were getting forward and whipping in crosses with pace resulting in some great headers being scored by the likes of Sakho and Valencia. That's because they are the type of player that makes something from nothing - hence why they are so good at chasing defenders down. We had options and were getting plenty of players in the box. That has now changed as they have become bit part and have to sometimes get out of Carroll's way and look for a knock down or a rebound if anything.
We had forward options running down the line, whereas Carroll will mostly hold the centre ground. That's why Noble was holding his hands up and going backwards sometimes at Chelsea because there wasn't the wing option movement for him up front. Especially yesterday, we lost plenty of crossing options when a player's first touch let him down, (Downing a few times, O'Brien especially). The result was a poor cross that Carrroll is not going to compete strongly for. He is far more effective when he gets the ball he wants.

The other two, Sakho especially, tend to chase any ball into the box because they have an eye for goal. Sakho's goals haven't dried up because of his contract situation or his back problem. It's because he is having to learn how to play in bits and pieces with someone who is relatively immobile and does not like balls played to him at pace. It's much harder to run fast with the ball from a standing start. Valencia is finding this out also.

Just my tuppence worth.
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by Puff Daddy »

shammy wrote:
Everyone struggles against top teams thats how they become top teams.
Interesting point and to add another dimension to the debate that seems to be waging about the disallowed goal, one wonders if the lino would have flagged if that strike had been from a Chelsea, Man City or Man United player ?
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Re: West Ham United V Arsenal Match Thread

Post by sutts07 »

Final point on the offside from me...

Had our players moved out with the Arsenal players they would not have been offside at all. We were slower to react and that gave the ref the opportunity he needed to chalk it off.

Same as the peno.... We gave the ref the chance to award it and he did.

Maybe with a bit more conviction and a front two running at the opposition, we might have given the ref a decent chance to level it up. Saying that, there is no evidence to suggest he would have taken that chance and actually leveled it up.
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