Southampton 0-0 West Ham Utd (11/02/15)

[Sloffy]

RE the red card

The ref mustve deemed it to have been denying a clear goalscoring opportunity

Mane never actually had control of the ball at any point during the incident.

terrible goalkeeping but a yellow card for deliberate handball should've been the call

[vapourtrail]

We were attacking down the left with Jarvis and then with 3 back passes from within their half we had the Matador thinking he was Pele....

What bothered me was going from a place to attack to a place of danger...and we do it every game, all in the name of ball rentention. Then with usually go long from the keeper and give the ball back.

What im going around the houses saying is...stop going back to the keeper !!

Why not using the GK, when he's capable of playing with the ball on his feet, like Adrian normally is. Foootball has changed since the invitation of the back pass rule. So if you got a GK, who's good on the ball you're able to use him like a very defensive Libero and to push your defence higher up the pitch. If you look at Bayern or Germany and how theyy use Neuer, you see the future of goalkeeping. The lonely shot stopper, who punts the ball to the terraces is gone.

[ageing hammer]

Why not using the GK, when he's capable of playing with the ball on his feet, like Adrian normally is. Foootball has changed since the invitation of the back pass rule. So if you got a GK, who's good on the ball you're able to use him like a very defensive Libero and to push your defence higher up the pitch. If you look at Bayern or Germany and how theyy use Neuer, you see the future of goalkeeping. The lonely shot stopper, who punts the ball to the terraces is gone.

That's not a new concept mate, we used to do that in a lot of games as nippers if we were short a few players.

We called it a fly goalie and he could come out of the area and play further up fiield and then have to scarper back to try and save it if the oppositon attacked

[Markt85]

edited by a moderator

try again without the patronising post

your posting style has been warned before, if you can't abide by the forums rules, you signed up to then go elsewhere

thank you

seriously ?

i posted in support of Jussi and don't feel he deserves any criticism. there was no patronizing in that post - im reading far more outspoken replys that are being let go and mine in support of our players/managers gets removed.

[denzel]

The Opposition view is hilarious this week :lol:

[steveyrockstar]

Let's take the claret and blue specs off please gents, it's a blatant red card.

The bloke is in one on one, Adrian dives on it with his arm.

You can argue it all you want, if it was the other way around you'd all be baying for blood if the keeper wasn't sent off.

What planet are you on, son? It shouldve been a straight red for Mane. Adrian takes it past him with breathtaking ease, channelling Messi-like skill, and is about to run up to the other end of the pitch and score when Mane thuggishly wrestles him to the ground as though as he's trying to kill him!

No claret & blue specs about that. Clear as day for anyone to see. Should be a 9-game ban for Mane. Adrian's lucky to still be alive.

[steveyrockstar]

The Opposition view is hilarious this week :lol:

ditto that

this guy is an absolute moronic plum. He's had it so ingrained into his head that we play hoofball 100% of the time, that it;s completely clouded what he actualy sees on the pitch. We were dangerous pinging pases round our own penalty area at the time.

"West Ham United. Once renown as the 'Science of Football' team now reduced to 'hoof ball' tactics. Still they may well go down in the annals of football in these parts as being one of the very few, and possibly the only team able to despatch the ball out of the ground from a clearance. Congratulations!"
- spyinthesky
Read more at http://www.kumb.com/story.php?id=128266 ... okzVPl8.99" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[bullyhammer]

The contact before that does make a difference, but I don't see how that can affect the red card as it wasn't given.

Bullyhammer, take West Ham out of the equation, I see a keeper in a tussle with a forward, possibly fouled who then falls on the ball outside the area and basically picks the ball up to kill the game.

Deliberate intentional handball. why did he do it? to stop the opposition player getting the ball. I can certainly see why a ref would give a red card.

OK I said I wasn't gonna say any more... I fibbed, I'll just give my opinion on these points, by which time the FA will probably have made their ruling!

I agree the tussle before the handball didn't come into the ref's mind when he sent Adrian off. Whether the FA decide that it should have is doubtful imo. I think the description: "basically picks the ball up to kill the game" is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you? His arm touched the ball, intentionally I would say, then he shielded the ball with his body (not an offence) and swiftly got to his feet. Mane, when Adrian's handballed it, was falling down himself, body facing AWAY from the ball. Look at the replay again, do you think that if Adrian had not handballed it, Mane would have had a clear goal scoring chance? If you do than fair enough, we will have to agree to disagree.
As to the "Deliberate intentional handball." I can only repeat ALL handballs MUST be deliberate to be considered an offence. If the ref considers the handball a serious offence he can give a yellow card, there are no circumstances in which he can give a red card for handball. The ref had to have sent Adrian off for preventing a clear goal-scoring opportunity, nothing else comes into it. It's simply a matter of applying the rules. Refs are frequently criticised (often unfairly) for not being consistent. Sticking to the exact rules is the only way they can try to prevent such criticism.

Edit -- BTW despite all I have said I suspect the FA will want to support the ref, and, particularly as it's only a one game ban, not rescind it.

[denzel]

ditto that

this guy is an absolute moronic plum. He's had it so ingrained into his head that we play hoofball 100% of the time, that it;s completely clouded what he actualy sees on the pitch. We were dangerous pinging pases round our own penalty area at the time.

"West Ham United. Once renown as the 'Science of Football' team now reduced to 'hoof ball' tactics. Still they may well go down in the annals of football in these parts as being one of the very few, and possibly the only team able to despatch the ball out of the ground from a clearance. Congratulations!"
- spyinthesky
Read more at http://www.kumb.com/story.php?id=128266 ... okzVPl8.99" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They have an extremely high(or deluded) opinion of themselves and the way their team plays football.

[Broomfield Hammer]

I keep reading this but wasn't Adrian last man?

Maybe, but there's no "last man" rule. It's all about "denying a clear goalscoring opportunity".

If I remember correctly (and I can't be bothered to look it up ), there's a set of guidelines to help referees determine this. The position of defenders is one of them, but so, I believe, is the direction the attacker is moving, and whether he has control of the ball. "Last man" is lazy pundits' shorthand.

Edit:I should add that my first reaction when I saw the incident was that he had to go, it was only on watching the replays that I had serious questions about the red. But then again, I'm not a ref.

[rare as rockinghorse shat]

Let's take the claret and blue specs off please gents, it's a blatant red card.

The bloke is in one on one, Adrian dives on it with his arm.

You can argue it all you want, if it was the other way around you'd all be baying for blood if the keeper wasn't sent off.

There are many capable of having opinions on something without it being biased. F*ck me.
What do you think we are? 8?

There is nothing 'blatant' about it. There's various aspects of it to discuss.

If it was blatant, there'd be a lot less debate about it.

[bullyhammer]

^^^

And I'd like to think most of us would, after the adrenaline of the game has drained away, be saying: "fair enough, he had to go..."

[DannyboyDJL]

It's blatant that Adrian kicked Mane while attempting to clear the ball and that should have been a pen and a red. What happened after that is neither here nor there as the first decision was wrong, in our favour. Pushes etc came after a clear foul that was missed. Just happened that the ref missed 2 fouls before the handball decison.

[Sloop John B]

It's blatant that Adrian kicked Mane while attempting to clear the ball and that should have been a pen and a red. What happened after that is neither here nor there as the first decision was wrong, in our favour. Pushes etc came after a clear foul that was missed. Just happened that the ref missed 2 fouls before the handball decison.

Well except that if you look at the way the ball moves it seems blatant that he makes contact with the ball... Which would put them in the debatable/"seen them given" territory for a penalty.

[rare as rockinghorse shat]

It's blatant that Adrian kicked Mane while attempting to clear the ball and that should have been a pen and a red. What happened after that is neither here nor there as the first decision was wrong, in our favour. Pushes etc came after a clear foul that was missed. Just happened that the ref missed 2 fouls before the handball decison.

When discussing an appeal and the laws of the game based on the red card, it depends what the referee gave the red for.
If it was for the dive on the ball - which is hugely open for debate - then it's the first 'kick' incident that is rendered absolutely irrelevant.

From a fairness point of view, then that's a completely different discussion altogether, then you could argue that he could have got carded anyway for the kick, if you deem that to be the case.

[only1post]

Just a point on the argument that he was going away from goal so it was not a goal scoring opportunity.
Goals are scored when a player is moving away and has his back to the goal. Backward headers, overhead bicycle kicks, back heels.

[rare as rockinghorse shat]

Backward headers, overhead bicycle kicks, back heels.

Clear goalscoring opportunities?

[bullyhammer]

It's blatant that Adrian kicked Mane while attempting to clear the ball and that should have been a pen and a red. What happened after that is neither here nor there as the first decision was wrong, in our favour. Pushes etc came after a clear foul that was missed. Just happened that the ref missed 2 fouls before the handball decison.

If refs acted as you suggest there would be few players left on the field after 15 minutes of the average game.

[Billydinho]

There are many capable of having opinions on something without it being biased. F*ck me.
What do you think we are? 8?

There is nothing 'blatant' about it. There's various aspects of it to discuss.

If it was blatant, there'd be a lot less debate about it.

Of course it's a red card. If Forster did it, you'd argue the other way.

Because that's the type of guy you are, good sir.

[Billydinho]

As people say: "It's all about opinions."

I've said what I think, so won't repeat myself. But just wanted to say that imagining the incident "the other way around" isn't the best way to think about it. When trying to be objective I think the best mind-set to have is that of a complete neutral - somebody who truly doesn't care about either side... as if it were... erm... a Scotty league 3 game or something...

As a neutral, what would you have thought?

If Raith Rovers Goalkeeper did that against Arbroath, would you be shocked to see the man go?