What's done is done. My biggest concern is that the owners will use having less games as an excuse for not pushing the boat out for some more decent signings.rare as rockinghorse shat wrote:I am as bitterly disappointed we didn't give Europe more of a go, as many of you are.
Though, it's encouraging this morning on here to get the sense that many of us have seemingly woken up a little more philosophical about the whole thing.
ELQ3: Astra Giurgiu 2-1 West Ham Utd (06/08/15)
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
Lurching? new manager, new style, new players
If we could put the Europa League aside for a moment, we have to look at some of the similarities between the Clubs over the past ten years. Essentially in 2012-2013 we both emerged from the most tumultuous period's in our club's history (precipitated by cataclysmic financial matters), however, Southampton's approach has been highly admirable and ambitious, whereas we just seem to be lurching towards the move to the Olympic Stadium before actively trying to do anything.
building up the squad nicely
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
So have we, Payet is a massive upgrade on Downing. Carroll and Valencia are massive upgrades on Cole and Vaz Te. Ogbonna should be an upgrade once he settles and adjusts to the Premier League
But Downing is a serious upgrade on Jarvis, and he is gone while the latter remains. Ogbonna we will have to see how much of an upgrade he is on our existing centre backs (while agreeing that he should be). Unfortunately, the benefit of Carroll has been so highly fettered by injury that the availability of Cole has often been preferable.
This is more to do with Southampton's youth system more than anything else. Ours has been in downfall for a few years now and that is something that has been addressed. We have added a few youth players from other teams and injury permitting, Oxford will play for England in the next 6-7 years.
True, and Oxford looks like a super hot prospect. But the likes of Rodriguez, Fonte, and Pelle, were purchased, and improved upon and became internationals. We haven't done that with too many players since Carlton Cole, and most frustratingly is even when the likes of Nolan, Adrian, Cresswell, Jenkinson, and Noble have been playing out of their skins, they haven't got a call-up let alone a game.
Perhaps luck more than judgement, maybe their scouting system is better than ours, but don't forget that they have also sold a hell of a lot to be able to afford these multiple £10m players and the more that you go for, the likelihood that more will pay off. For our £10m+ signings, Carroll when fit has been class and the jury is out on Valencia. From the glimpses I have seen of Payet, we could probably get double our money back next year.
You're right on Payet. Payet is a serious player, and will be heavily in demand come Christmas. I also believe that Kouyate, Reid, Sakho, and Cresswell would all be good enough for double value, and in the case of Sakho and Cresswell, even more. However, they provide the spine of the team, and unless the same degree of effort was to be invested in scouting even better players to purchase with the proceeds, it would be a major mistake. Again, Carroll's long term injury problems are a major issue which would further diminish his value, while Jarvis' value could be anything up to £6-7 Million less than the final figure paid in 2012. Id also believe that Valencia would struggle to get the £14 million we paid, after a difficult first season and coming off the back of the hyper-inflated post world cup prices. Ultimately, a good bit of our squad are free-transfers in the making.
Again this is to do with being able to reinvest the money that they got from sales of mostly, their youth prospects. Something that when you go back 15-16 years was something that all West Ham fans were dead against (fair enough we didn't reinvest properly), and would be against now. Right now, would you want to sell Jenkinson for £15m, Oxford for £12m and Sahko for £15m just so that we could get another 5 £10m players?
Unfortunately, we are talking hypotheticals here, as Jenkinson is not ours to sell, and Oxford has a lot of developing still to do. Would i object to it? If the investment was made in the same vein as Southampton's, then id have no objections to it. Essentially, players like Forster, Pelle, Long, Wanyama, Tadic etc have all been purchased with good consideration, as they have either been seriously pulling up trees in international leagues, playing Champions League, PL stalwarts, or winning caps in good National Teams. Luck will have a part to play, and Watford will find that out to their benefit or detriment over the season, but good investment after realising funds will progress teams. Don't forget the £7.5 Million obtained for Hartson was some of the best money spent by the club (Di Canio, Minto, Foe), while the bulk of £10 Million from the Rio transfer was utterly wasted (Camara, Song, Dailly, Todorov). Liquidating assets is not a bad thing, if the structure is there for sensible re-investment.
This irks me somewhat, but this was more down to Mr. Allardyce in recent years. I was disappointed with last night, but it was always the plan to send the kids over in that leg. For me, James Collins was the cause of our departure with the reckless red card in the 1st leg, as we would probably be looking forward to a tie with AZ right now.
Collins should shoulder some of the blame. The "one foible too far" thread is there for a reason, as Ginge's high quality as a player is often fettered by slightly poor judgement. However, that didnt mean that the team should have been emaciated the way it was. That was a management decision not to put the best foot forward.
But Downing is a serious upgrade on Jarvis, and he is gone while the latter remains. Ogbonna we will have to see how much of an upgrade he is on our existing centre backs (while agreeing that he should be). Unfortunately, the benefit of Carroll has been so highly fettered by injury that the availability of Cole has often been preferable.
This is more to do with Southampton's youth system more than anything else. Ours has been in downfall for a few years now and that is something that has been addressed. We have added a few youth players from other teams and injury permitting, Oxford will play for England in the next 6-7 years.
True, and Oxford looks like a super hot prospect. But the likes of Rodriguez, Fonte, and Pelle, were purchased, and improved upon and became internationals. We haven't done that with too many players since Carlton Cole, and most frustratingly is even when the likes of Nolan, Adrian, Cresswell, Jenkinson, and Noble have been playing out of their skins, they haven't got a call-up let alone a game.
Perhaps luck more than judgement, maybe their scouting system is better than ours, but don't forget that they have also sold a hell of a lot to be able to afford these multiple £10m players and the more that you go for, the likelihood that more will pay off. For our £10m+ signings, Carroll when fit has been class and the jury is out on Valencia. From the glimpses I have seen of Payet, we could probably get double our money back next year.
You're right on Payet. Payet is a serious player, and will be heavily in demand come Christmas. I also believe that Kouyate, Reid, Sakho, and Cresswell would all be good enough for double value, and in the case of Sakho and Cresswell, even more. However, they provide the spine of the team, and unless the same degree of effort was to be invested in scouting even better players to purchase with the proceeds, it would be a major mistake. Again, Carroll's long term injury problems are a major issue which would further diminish his value, while Jarvis' value could be anything up to £6-7 Million less than the final figure paid in 2012. Id also believe that Valencia would struggle to get the £14 million we paid, after a difficult first season and coming off the back of the hyper-inflated post world cup prices. Ultimately, a good bit of our squad are free-transfers in the making.
Again this is to do with being able to reinvest the money that they got from sales of mostly, their youth prospects. Something that when you go back 15-16 years was something that all West Ham fans were dead against (fair enough we didn't reinvest properly), and would be against now. Right now, would you want to sell Jenkinson for £15m, Oxford for £12m and Sahko for £15m just so that we could get another 5 £10m players?
Unfortunately, we are talking hypotheticals here, as Jenkinson is not ours to sell, and Oxford has a lot of developing still to do. Would i object to it? If the investment was made in the same vein as Southampton's, then id have no objections to it. Essentially, players like Forster, Pelle, Long, Wanyama, Tadic etc have all been purchased with good consideration, as they have either been seriously pulling up trees in international leagues, playing Champions League, PL stalwarts, or winning caps in good National Teams. Luck will have a part to play, and Watford will find that out to their benefit or detriment over the season, but good investment after realising funds will progress teams. Don't forget the £7.5 Million obtained for Hartson was some of the best money spent by the club (Di Canio, Minto, Foe), while the bulk of £10 Million from the Rio transfer was utterly wasted (Camara, Song, Dailly, Todorov). Liquidating assets is not a bad thing, if the structure is there for sensible re-investment.
This irks me somewhat, but this was more down to Mr. Allardyce in recent years. I was disappointed with last night, but it was always the plan to send the kids over in that leg. For me, James Collins was the cause of our departure with the reckless red card in the 1st leg, as we would probably be looking forward to a tie with AZ right now.
Collins should shoulder some of the blame. The "one foible too far" thread is there for a reason, as Ginge's high quality as a player is often fettered by slightly poor judgement. However, that didnt mean that the team should have been emaciated the way it was. That was a management decision not to put the best foot forward.
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
Yes, lurching.hatori wrote:
Lurching? new manager, new style, new players
building up the squad nicely
I totally agree that purchasing players like Payet is a real nod to the future, and was a complete coup, and I think ogbanna will be precisely the same. However, I feel that this season could be more of the same to ensure PL survival for the Olympic Stadium move, particularly in relation to the cups.
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
Hear hear! This is where it really matters for us. Let's put Europe behind us until we're truly ready for it. We'll just embarrass ourselves otherwise.
Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
They're probably the easiest club to compare ourselves to.Greatest Cockney Rip Off wrote:Why are we comparing ourselves to Southampton? They have an infinitely better defence than ours and arguably a better manager too. Their midfield and forwards (as a unit) are better than anything we have in our squad (bar some individuals). We can blame Sam for some questionable singings yes, but the bottom line is, our squad isn't good enough for Europe. Southampton got where they did on merit, they won more games, conceded less goals and finished higher in the table. They had better form over all almost all season (certainly in the latter part) and have a cracking defence too as well as turning over some of the bigger teams. We got into Europe via a dodgy route that exposed our shortcomings in every postion on the park (bar goalkeeper).
Face facts, we just aren't good enough for Europe at this stage.
We came up together and have stayed in the league ever since.
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
If you read the thread you'll notice nearly everyone has said the same thing.mumbles87 wrote:I am probably in the minority but I watched last nights game and dispite the defeat I thought every single youth player could hold their heads high.
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
We only embarrassed ourselves by putting out the under 18s last night. A full strength squad would have have beaten Astra easily. We just never got out of first gear.Greatest Cockney Rip Off wrote:Hear hear! This is where it really matters for us. Let's put Europe behind us until we're truly ready for it. We'll just embarrass ourselves otherwise.
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
I hope you're right Del. But I suspect Bilic will put his job before our lofty ambitions of a good cup run - just like last night.WHU_Del wrote:Now, none of us know FOR SURE why he made the decisions that he did, but I have a feeling that now he's had that result, and seen the ill-feeling that has been generated, it's unlikely that we'd see that kind of side put out in e.g. the 3rd Round of the FA Cup (unless we draw someone like Slough at home).
Avoid relegation at all costs.
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
but they wont be able to stay there if they keep selling thier best players eaxh season , despite however good Koeman is at his job
Last edited by Up the Junction on Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Messy quotes removed.
Reason: Messy quotes removed.
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
I'm trying to be philosophical about it but I just keep coming back to the fact we didn't give ourselves a chance last night. That game last night was winnable and we made it hard for ourselves from before a ball was kicked and we had nothing to offer when it went wrong.rare as rockinghorse shat wrote:I am as bitterly disappointed we didn't give Europe more of a go, as many of you are.
Though, it's encouraging this morning on here to get the sense that many of us have seemingly woken up a little more philosophical about the whole thing.
Of course I can see the logic behind it, but I just can't get round the fact we weren't really interested in going into the unknown, which with West Ham is usually an adventure not the damp squib last night was.
'Aim low in life - you'll always achieve your targets' seems this board's motto to me.
It wasn't quite put that way at my appointment for The Olympic Stadium transfer a few weeks ago.
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
never see a poor bookiePulls up Trees wrote:Spend Big, Win Big.
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
700+ words, deserves promotion: http://www.kumb.com/article.php?id=3626Het-Field wrote:This is probably what annoys me the most. The idea that European Competition is something of a hindrance, and should be avoided at all costs. It is in fact the attitude which will allow the "Top 6" dominate English football, and the European places for years to come.
A 700+ word contribution and you pick him up on one word. That's akin to trolling, my friend.hatori wrote:Lurching? new manager, new style, new players
building up the squad nicely
Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
Het-Field wrote:This is probably what annoys me the most. The idea that European Competition is something of a hindrance, and should be avoided at all costs. It is in fact the attitude which will allow the "Top 6" dominate English football, and the European places for years to come.
Indeed. Whilst I don't entirely agree with the comparison, with plenty of club, board and manager bashing on here without any substance and childish name calling, it was a well thought and written post.Up the Junction wrote:700+ words, deserves promotion: http://www.kumb.com/article.php?id=3626" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
With one day delay to let myself calm down and gain some perspective, I must unfortunately say that it does not feel any better today. Disillusioned is the word.
Getting eliminated from the competition is not the biggest problem. Change of the mood in and around the club, loss of optimism and trust towards owners, increase of pressure on Slaven etc. however are very big problem imo.
Absolutely unnecessary. This was one of the biggest mistakes Davids made (except Avram Grant appointment probably).
Getting eliminated from the competition is not the biggest problem. Change of the mood in and around the club, loss of optimism and trust towards owners, increase of pressure on Slaven etc. however are very big problem imo.
Absolutely unnecessary. This was one of the biggest mistakes Davids made (except Avram Grant appointment probably).
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Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
Highly debatable. The first team couldn't beat Astra at home. What makes you think we'd have been different over there?LincolnshireHammer wrote:We only embarrassed ourselves by putting out the under 18s last night. A full strength squad would have have beaten Astra easily. We just never got out of first gear.
Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
I got a decent stream yesterday so the first match I've been able to watch, copped out with 5 mins to go but I don't think I missed anything.
Whether I agree or not, I see why they did what they did by taking the team they did. They nearly came unstuck though. If the idea was to come out of Europe, the kids almost did it and kept us in. Not a great performance but most have nothing to be ashamed of. If the idea was to put up a credible effort, why no Malfi, Jarvis and a few others that aren't going anywhere at t'Gooners. Wouldn't it be nice to get a straight answer from someone about that. Never going to happen though.
I can't go to the games, its a long long way, but big hello to those who went / go. It tests the faith to the extreme.
Miaga is a total waste of space. I was prepared to give him the benefit with a fresh start but no effort at all.
Randolph scares me, I had a lot of time for JJ , getting on or no, and I don't see this guy as any improvement. I hope I'm wrong.
Lanzini looks alright, I have hopes.
I like Lee, I don't think he's up to it but at least there was some effort.
Most of the rest put in a shift of sorts , even Nolan was standing at the end. I thought he'd be on the floor gasping at half time.
I was never a Sam fan and thought we should have twisted long ago. Remembering the dross served up at the end of last season I still think there is hope for something. We've got some new blood that's looking good, Sully specials or no, last year brought us a few contenders. We're going to be saddled with Sam's
rubbish for a while though. Although strangely enough I still have a little hope for Jarvis if he can adjust.
Too early to panic yet, so I still have hope we'll see some thrills & spills worthy of our faith. Bit of a domestic cup run and a few giant killings in the league.
COYI!!
Whether I agree or not, I see why they did what they did by taking the team they did. They nearly came unstuck though. If the idea was to come out of Europe, the kids almost did it and kept us in. Not a great performance but most have nothing to be ashamed of. If the idea was to put up a credible effort, why no Malfi, Jarvis and a few others that aren't going anywhere at t'Gooners. Wouldn't it be nice to get a straight answer from someone about that. Never going to happen though.
I can't go to the games, its a long long way, but big hello to those who went / go. It tests the faith to the extreme.
Miaga is a total waste of space. I was prepared to give him the benefit with a fresh start but no effort at all.
Randolph scares me, I had a lot of time for JJ , getting on or no, and I don't see this guy as any improvement. I hope I'm wrong.
Lanzini looks alright, I have hopes.
I like Lee, I don't think he's up to it but at least there was some effort.
Most of the rest put in a shift of sorts , even Nolan was standing at the end. I thought he'd be on the floor gasping at half time.
I was never a Sam fan and thought we should have twisted long ago. Remembering the dross served up at the end of last season I still think there is hope for something. We've got some new blood that's looking good, Sully specials or no, last year brought us a few contenders. We're going to be saddled with Sam's
rubbish for a while though. Although strangely enough I still have a little hope for Jarvis if he can adjust.
Too early to panic yet, so I still have hope we'll see some thrills & spills worthy of our faith. Bit of a domestic cup run and a few giant killings in the league.
COYI!!
Re: FC Astra Giurgiu v West Ham United: Match Thread
if sam WAS THEN SO DOES billic need be labelled the sameAztec Hammer wrote:Slaven is a coward just as Sam was.
TCSB