Aston Villa 1-1 West Ham Utd (26/12/15)

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m-h
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by m-h »

Harry Hound wrote: Too many of these refs appear to be far too easy on these so called Jock "hardmen" with the Payet James McCarthy incident a clear example of what happens when they don't get to grips with these tw@ts.
Indeed. Yes it was finally McCarthy that got Payet, he had though in just about every match prior to that
been targeted and at least one lunge coming in on him usually in the second half. Most of the time Payet could get his feet off the ground or see the challenge coming. The McCarthy one was cynical and from behind iirc. Hopefully on his return the refs will do a better job. Unfortunately though i wouldn't bet on it.
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by hammer1975 »

Our midfield has been either abject or brilliant based on threads and posts on KUMB in recent history

Under Sam in the champ it was 'workmanlike' then we signed Vaz and suddenly it was the best midfield in the league

Vaz wasn't trusted up a league and we got Carroll...which worked for a time - but we knew Nolan's time was approaching

In the Prem it was poor with Maiga up front and we opted to go with 4-6-0 which worked for a game then didn't....ever again

So we got two new strikers - and along came the diamond - we couldn't stop scoring and noble-song-kouyate-downing was the best midfield outside the top five according to many on here ..... Or something like that

Sakho got injured - we lost momentum, belief, our way

Two more attacking players joined - we scored lots of goals, and we had the best squad ever...again according to a number of posters here

Sakho got injured - we lost momentum, belief, our way

I've played to nothing more than a recreational standard in my life but I've been at a couple of teams who play good football, even create the better chances but we shouldn't underestimate how demoralising it is to know that the guy up top is unlikely to score unless it is absolutely unmissable....and knowing that you will likely lose if you concede two naturally puts you into a defensive mindset.....
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Kialos »

I'm with you Bubbles1966, A defensively solid fullback with weaker attacking play is above a defensively weak fullback with solid attacking play any day of the week.
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by the pink palermo »

@Hammer 1975

In the first half of last season we regularly had four players in the oppositions box when the ball was delivered in .We won loads .

In the first part of this season we regularly had 4 players in the oppositions box when the ball was delivered in .We won loads .

Recently, much as the second half of last season we rarely have more than three, often only 2 .We've stopped scoring .

To get the goals you need numbers in the box .

When Kouyate remembers he is allowed in the oppositions box he can be very useful , too often though he forgets .Song, I don't believe understands he can go that far forward .He nearly went into Villas box yesterday, but stopped himself in the nick of time .I'm sure I heard him say to himself "what are you doing, you can't go there" .

It's why we miss Payet, Lanzini and Moses .It's why we've stopped scoring,and why we've stopped winning .
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by hammer1975 »

I agree Pinky

I do think that there is 'push' and 'pull' at work - both impacting us in a negative way

Kouyate and Song could do with going into the box more (as could Noble who probably has the most one-on-one skill to do it). Bilic needs to identify any reluctance from them to get into the box and give them a rocket/arm round the shoulder etc.

But i do think that is a symptom as much as a cause - the players don't want to gamble as much because the space hasn't been created in the box in the way that movement from the front man creates it.....they also seem to have less confidence in the front players - whether that's my reading that Zarate may not pass, Jelavic may not hold the ball etc I'm not sure.

One thing I am sure about is the point where the attack breaks down you can see the look on Kouyate's, Noble's, Cresswell's faces - face to the heavens, sighs, few choice swear words.....I'd say they look very frustrated - and that weighs heavy on players and impacts their decision making

I'm probably over analysing and giving the midfield too much credit but I believe each and every one of Noble, Kouyate, Song and Obiang are top 10 midfielders. It's the stuff around them that ain't working as much as the stick that they are taking directly.
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by the pink palermo »

Hammer 1975, again, fair points .

It's the bits around them .Full backs, and forwards with poor movement .
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by continental skills »

Good points from the two posters above.

What would interest me is how much of our midfielders not getting into the box is to do with the midfielders' ability, and how much does it have to do with tactics and instructions from Bilic.

I found it concerning when Bilic publicly came out and said that our side had been seriously weakened after Payet's injury. However true that may be, I didn't feel it was wise for a manager to come out and say it. I no longer recall his exact wording, but it was along the lines of us having to make do for a while with second-rate players. The tactics in the last few games are entirely in line with this view. It's as if he has little real confidence in the current players' ability and sets the team up to play with the emphasis of countering the opposition, rather than playing to our players' strengths as we were doing at the start of the season.
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by lukeWHU »

the pink palermo wrote:Kouyate's the problem .
So you're saying that if Kouyate hadn't been playing we would have won the last 5 games?
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by irving boleyn »

I believe when we were all (mainly) optimistic after our early successes, the feeling that we would have a good season was predicated upon our key players remaining fit.

You cant get a sufficiently deep enough squad in one buying window.
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by irving boleyn »

I am sure that Kayoute's form depends on his starting position'

When playing deep he will earn his corn....,he doesnt have the tools to be an attacking mid.
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Wilko1304 »

For all the love Tomkins is getting, I don't think you're gonna get much in attack if you play 3 centre backs and 3 deeper midfielders. Pulis would get slated for it.

Jenkinson's weaknesses are Tomkins strengths and vice versa. Right now I think we are missing Jenkinson's presence at least as much as we are benefitting from Tomkins' presence
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by bubbles1966 »

Up the Junction wrote: This being our only goal with him playing that role since mid-September. No goals, no assists - whereas Jenkinson has already grabbed a couple of goals.

Like I said - you gain some, you lose some.
Clean sheets have been there in August and December.

Payet, Moses, Lanzini and Sakho haven't.
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by lukeWHU »

the pink palermo wrote:
When Kouyate remembers he is allowed in the oppositions box he can be very useful , too often though he forgets .Song, I don't believe understands he can go that far forward .He nearly went into Villas box yesterday, but stopped himself in the nick of time .I'm sure I heard him say to himself "what are you doing, you can't go there" .

It's why we miss Payet, Lanzini and Moses .It's why we've stopped scoring,and why we've stopped winning .
Perhaps he has been told not to push on by his manager....
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by bubbles1966 »

the pink palermo wrote:Can he control the ball, can he pick a pass, can he make a pass ? Why does he appear so infrequently in the oppositions box ?
He appears frequently enough to have scored three and had our best chance yesterday and his USP is obvious.

Others are supposed to be the pass-pickers in our team, and they really aren't looking the part.
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by libero »

Harry Hound wrote: Too many of these refs appear to be far too easy on these so called Jock "hardmen" with the Payet James McCarthy incident a clear example of what happens when they don't get to grips with these tw@ts.
Exactly - it's proving to be a major problem for us this season - refs allow thugs to whack & bully our skillful & creative players into inneffectiveness & injury,

But it's also a huge problem for the English game in general. There are many reasons why Spain (for example) produces & develops so many more small and skillful players than England, but a crucial reason is the protection they are given by referees, Players like Iniesta, Silva, Xavi or Messi would never have been allowed to develop in the EPL. And thugs like Hutton or McCarthy would never make it in a league where their violence was sanctioned

As if to prove the point, Hutton's attempt to carve out a career in Spain with Mallorca was an abject failure
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by Lee_WHU »

Wilko1304 wrote:Jenkinson's weaknesses are Tomkins strengths and vice versa. Right now I think we are missing Jenkinson's presence at least as much as we are benefitting from Tomkins' presence
I firmly believe this.

Love what Tomkins has done defensively at RB. Dearly miss what Jenkinson had done offensively at RB.
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by durham city hammer »

Tbf 75 has probably nailed it, it seems to weighing heavily on our midfielders minds and possibly Bilic's that if we concede first ATM, we are very likely to lose the game and we have retreated into full defensive mode ! This ain't doing us any favours and I hope Bilic realises this, we can't keep being battered for whole games week after week, we'll come unstuck at some point, I'd still bench Kouyate and noble for saints though, or at least one of them, I want to see song and Obiang together, plus it will freshen things up considering how quickly we play after villa !
Pinky, I know you don't rate Song you've made that abundantly clear, but the blokes been out injured for six months, what are you expecting to see from him three games into his comeback ? 'We've signed him but we're not sure why' what does that even mean mate ? ( no offence intended)
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by m-h »

the pink palermo wrote: In the first half of last season we regularly had four players in the oppositions box when the ball was delivered in .We won loads .

In the first part of this season we regularly had 4 players in the oppositions box when the ball was delivered in .We won loads .

Recently, much as the second half of last season we rarely have more than three, often only 2 .We've stopped scoring .

To get the goals you need numbers in the box .
Very succinct point and its been glaring in our recent outings. Take yesterday for example, Antonio finally delivers and gets to the by line and puts in a cut back ball to the middle of the area, no one there, no one coming in from the edge of the box. Perhaps he should have checked his run, held the ball and then played it backwards 30 yards down the pitch. As has been already have posted, its belief, intent, confidence, not only from those on the pitch but the manager as well.

Have we been opting out and taking the path of least resistance because we can't play our football without Payet, imo yes and that includes the manager. Thats not meant as a dig, just that a mentality seems to have set in. Chances are at some point we are going to be without Payet and other key players in the second half of the season as well, so we better find a way (quickly) to be more effective in attack and that includes getting players in and around the box.
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by bigcarpchaser »

Would anyone play Jenks in front of Tomkins, as an out and out winger? Just for 30 mins mind.
Could work?
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Re: Aston Villa v West Ham Utd: match thread

Post by bubbles1966 »

m-h wrote:Very succinct point and its been glaring in our recent outings. Take yesterday for example, Antonio finally delivers and gets to the by line and puts in a cut back ball to the middle of the area, no one there, no one coming in from the edge of the box.
Who was playing there?

Who are the people that have played and consistently come off second best in midfield against Norwich, Swansea, Bournemouth, Sunderland and Villa - the worst teams in the league?
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