West Ham Utd 2-4 Watford (10/09/16)

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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

One of the main reasons why Spurs are so balanced, is because they have a permanent holding defensive midfielder in Dier performing that role with the likes of Wanyama and Alli playing off him down the middle also.

Cannot underestimate the role of a perm holding man (preferably one that's decent and disciplined) which then gives the defence extra security/another body to help defend and an outlet to build from the back.

Only 2men in the middle to do all the donkey work is killing us, especially when Kouyate goes walk abouts, then it's generally left to just one man who ain't super human.
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by mumbles87 »

Colours never run wrote:One of the main reasons why Spurs are so balanced, is because they have a permanent holding defensive midfielder in Dier performing that role with the likes of Wanyama and Alli playing off him down the middle also.

Cannot underestimate the role of a perm holding man (preferably one that's decent and disciplined) which then gives the defence extra security/another body to help defend and an outlet to build from the back.

Only 2men in the middle to do all the donkey work is killing us, especially when Kouyate goes walk abouts, then it's generally left to just one man who ain't super human.
When Noble broke into the team he gave an interview in which he said it was his job to win the ball back and give it to the more talented players in the team. He could be the perfect CDM if told to sit back and hold. He can still start attacks with a killer ball from the back
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Patito »

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote: All very well, but how many points did it get us?

It got us a goal :?
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

mumbles87 wrote:
When Noble broke into the team he gave an interview in which he said it was his job to win the ball back and give it to the more talented players in the team. He could be the perfect CDM if told to sit back and hold. He can still start attacks with a killer ball from the back
I hear you and partly agree, but I don't think he's best suited for that role and in any case, I think it holds his game back as he's good in the middle and final third also. I'm more than content to see Noble go box to box because by and large he's often effective in one form or another. Unfortunately I can't quite say the same for Kouyate as I find him very inconsistent (certainly in comparison with "Mr Consistent"). And that's why I'd either drop him or better still, give him extra protection whilst he does his thing tearing around like an excitable puppy dog, as someone like Obiang/Nordtveit tidy up all the **** left behind in wide open spaces. For want of a better analogy. :D
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Patito »

The only problem with that is we'd end up dropping one of Antonio, Lanzini or Payet, in turn, whilst we might concede less then we'd probably score less.
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

mumbles87 wrote:
When Noble broke into the team he gave an interview in which he said it was his job to win the ball back and give it to the more talented players in the team. He could be the perfect CDM if told to sit back and hold. He can still start attacks with a killer ball from the back
Noble does not have the positional understanding or discipline to play it. He is an all action midfielder who loves to be involved in the play. Nothing wrong with that but it does not lend itself to the role. Him and kouyate are always caught following the ball in no man's land.
song is the closest we have had for a while but even he wasn't really disciplined enough either
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

Patito wrote:The only problem with that is we'd end up dropping one of Antonio, Lanzini or Payet, in turn, whilst we might concede less then we'd probably score less.

I really don't think it would effect our attack too much. In fact it would enhance it as silly as that sounds. It'll mean less of the attack having to chase back after lost causes like they were ending up doing against Watford because we kept gifting the ball away or not winning enough 1st/2nd balls in the first place to build from. It would mean say leaving out Kouyate for Lanzini to be instead, if accommodating a holding player, or Kouyate is detailed to stay put in the DM role himself. But I'm bored of continually seeing us over run in the middle keep searching for the glory and disregarding our defensive duties. Too much disconnect between the defence and attack at the moment and I've never been a big fan of 4-2-3-1 for that very reason if you haven't the precise personnel who are responsible. 4141 or 433/451 makes us so much more compact and difficult to break down and we need to become more solid if we are to gain any momentum and pick up points again. We are far too over exposed every game this year and we cannot continue doing the same things that aren't working as well as the first part of last season when we were tight and compact playing wonderful football on the counter. But that's the clue, on the counter. I made a big thing about how well we play with little of the ball but when we did have it we were highly effective with about 35/40% of possession. When we have close to 60% like we did in sat, we struggle more.
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Patito »

I get your points mate, it's hard to strike the balance between having enough defensive protection and ball winners in the middle of the park, and then at the same time, having enough there going forward to open teams up. I certainly don't have the answers.

This is where I think Lanzini is key there though. He has a bit of tenacity in him and does win the ball back for us(moreso than most other no. 10's throughout the league), and he's such a calming influence in the middle; he rarely gives the ball away cheaply and is so good at starting our attacks from both deeper and more forward positions.

That's why I think our best bet is to persist with him in that number 10 position, let him roam in the middle he can come deep and collect the ball when we're in possession and press the opposition when we don't have it.

For me, Payet, Lanzini and Antonio playing behind Zaza is the way to go. Noble and Kouyate have shown at times they are more than adequate playing together in the middle but then other games, like yesterday, they really haven't. Kouyate definitely should be more of a presence in there.

Ogbonna coming in and Arbeloa at right back should cut out a lot of our defensive errors too. I've strayed from your original point CNR but those are my thoughts on our team at the moment. I don't think we are far off with our personnel we just need to get more organised at the back to give us a platform IMO.
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by S-H »

Add Ogbonna and Arbeloa to the defence and Nordtviet or Obiang to the midfield.

As much as I like Both Kouyate and Noble, we cannot persist with playing them together, especially while neither of them a playing particularly well. we need to protect that back 4 with a dedicated and disciplined DM.

Kouyate for Obiang would be my preference, can I see it happening.. sadly, no.
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Hammer1972 »

Jumby wrote: I think you missed something in the picture......
I think I still am.... :?
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by fjthegrey »

Just looking at the goals alone, I'm not so concerned. They aren't systemic errors in my opinion.

First goal, lucky. 2 deflections.
Second goal, major defensive f*** up. Not a common occurrence.
Third goal, top class finish. Sometimes you've just got to hold your hands up.
Fourth goal, goalkeeping f*** up. Not a common occurrence.

Obviously we are surrendering too many chances and we can't continue to make such bad errors, but it wouldn't take a lot to fix the goals we conceded on Saturday.
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Jay-Dee »

Easy fix.

Substitute Byram with Arbeloa and we will suddenly be a much better team. Goal 1, 3 and 4 could both be avoided with a more experienced RB, and it would also reduce the panic we tend to get when we are under attack (because of bad positioning). Whenever he is pressured, he backs very deep into our penalty box, meaning that almost every shot on goal will hurt us. Byram is promising, but he is far to inexperienced at this level. He needs to work a lot on his positioning and tactics.
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

fjthegrey wrote:Just looking at the goals alone, I'm not so concerned. They aren't systemic errors in my opinion.

First goal, lucky. 2 deflections.
Second goal, major defensive **** up. Not a common occurrence.
Third goal, top class finish. Sometimes you've just got to hold your hands up.
Fourth goal, goalkeeping **** up. Not a common occurrence.

Obviously we are surrendering too many chances and we can't continue to make such bad errors, but it wouldn't take a lot to fix the goals we conceded on Saturday.

And the 5,6,7,8th other clear opportunities for Watford to score during the 90 minutes supposedly away from home? It was alarming the amount of chances they were getting and not all down to just 1 or 2 people in the side. Many defensively went for a burton and it's simply not acceptable as a team to be defending as poorly as we did on Saturday. It's not the first time either, defending as a team is generally shocking this calendar year. Leaking goals like a sieve. I make that about 36 goals conceded (could have been a lot worse) in 23 PL games, excluding cup matches in 2016. It need stemming and getting under control now.
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by brooking1966 »

Colours never run wrote: I hear you and partly agree, but I don't think he's best suited for that role and in any case, I think it holds his game back as he's good in the middle and final third also. I'm more than content to see Noble go box to box because by and large he's often effective in one form or another. Unfortunately I can't quite say the same for Kouyate as I find him very inconsistent (certainly in comparison with "Mr Consistent"). And that's why I'd either drop him or better still, give him extra protection whilst he does his thing tearing around like an excitable puppy dog, as someone like Obiang/Nordtveit tidy up all the **** left behind in wide open spaces. For want of a better analogy. :D
Completely disagree, Noble is not 'Mr Consistent' Have you actually watched him lately? When did he last have a good game, that Payet freekick at the end looking for the Scholes finish was a bad slice considering the time & space. He hasn't got the physical tools to be a box to box midfielder he is a puppy compared to other PL Midfielders. Kouyate was motm 1st 3 games in comparison, yet for some reason you don't acknowledge it in your summation of Kouyate.

When you have no collaborative organized pressure up top by our 'Flair Players' (Payet/Lanzini/Tore) other teams can load up in our half. This is the reason I see both Kouyate & Noble having to move forward out of CM position so much.

The way we want to play with our attaking formation requires the prerequesite that our fair players press effectively from the front. This will increase the chance of counters & best function for our attack-minded team.

I Love Masuaku he is top notch, great skill, pace & composure, looks like a warrior too.
Give Fletcher (ST) & Oxford (DM) a start vs WBA & bring ZaZa & Noble off the bench
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

That's not me that nicknames him Mr Consistent, that's all the managers he's worked under and many pundits that coined that phrase for him. Maybe they don't know what they're talking about?


For what it's worth though, as one of his biggest supporters as I do appreciate a lot of his game, I think he has been poor for most of the start of this season. He's not without exception to criticism and he certainly deserves his share at the moment, although I wouldn't drop him just yet. In a another game or two I might hangs my mind if it continues for much longer.
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by brooking1966 »

Colours never run wrote:That's not me that nicknames him Mr Consistent, that's all the managers he's worked under and many pundits that coined that phrase for him. Maybe they don't know what they're talking about?
That was then & this is now, all the managers were right then, but would they all say the same now? We can't afford to live in the past, the present is here right now. I love Noble believe it or not, but when I look at the quality we have I see Kouyate/Lanzini/Fenandes/feghouli and in some respects Oxford as more effective in CM
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Pango »

Pango wrote:Very important to grind out a win.

Because in our two toughest games of the whole season the referee totally bottled it and didn't send off the opposing centre forwards which were 'stone wall' red cards, we now simply have to WIN this or our PL season is over with regards challenging for Europe again.

Lose and we will be close to the bottom 3 and even this early in the season pressure will build and build fast. Ridiculous as it seems. So any win regardless of goal scorer or technique used to score the goal is required badly.

Then with WBA and Soton to follow we might be able to get in the top half of the table relax and then start playing some 'stuff' when all the players are back fully fit. (Lazini / Payet etc)

:crest:
See what I meant now ...
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

The past?! It's only been 4 games in to a new season. He was as consistent as he's ever been if not more last season. Form temporary, class permanent and all that. He definitely gets the benefit of doubt for now but I do acknowledge that if he continues to play poorly by not taking control more of midfield and his team with orders, then a little spell on the bench will be called for. And he knows it after being the one to be hauled off in the 2nd half.

As for Fernandes, you definitely can't say he's a better option than Noble after never seeing him play. We all get that he's promising but it's stretching it to say play him right now instead of a usually dependable Captain.
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by Pango »

Starting Zaza, Payet and Lanzini all at once with all 3 lacking full match fitness was way to bold.

They only just had about 90 minutes in them combined !!!
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Re: West Ham Utd v Watford: match thread

Post by bobbymooresbracelet »

Pango wrote:Starting Zaza, Payet and Lanzini all at once with all 3 lacking full match fitness was way to bold.

They only just had about 90 minutes in them combined !!!
Starting Adran,Byram and Collins with full match fitness was the problem.
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