West Ham Utd 0-2 Manchester Utd (02/01/17)

An archive of match day threads originally posted in the General Discussion forum.

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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby sendô on Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:46 am

"I can see why it was given".

A phrase I've never understood. It's either a red or it isn't. There shouldn't be that much subjectivity to it - if there is then players are regularly getting sent off for challenges that are not red card challenges and we've all become too used to it.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby The Gibbins on Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:52 am

sendô wrote:"I can see why it was given".

A phrase I've never understood. It's either a red or it isn't. There shouldn't be that much subjectivity to it - if there is then players are regularly getting sent off for challenges that are not red card challenges and we've all become too used to it.

Its the way Feghouli went in that from certain angles it can look a lot worse than it actually is. It wasn't a particularly good challenge to begin with, but in an instant it can look a lot worse.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby Iron-worx on Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:53 am

My view on this hasn't changed...

If you have a player wrongly sent off early on and a clearly offside goal is allowed against you too...

Then the officials have decided the result because your chances of getting anything from the game are mighty slim.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby rare as rockinghorse shat on Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:55 am

Of course there's subjectivity.

Opposed to that would be saying 'every decision is clear cut and easy'.

Why do you think there are appeals? Just due to referee incompetence?
It's because people can get difficult decisions wrong sometimes.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby djclipz on Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:07 pm

In every angle, it does not look like a red card offence. If refs can't tell the difference between a 2 footed lunge or studs up challenge and a 50-50 ball played by both players they need to go back to referee college.

I think the punishment will be rescinded not because Jones rolled around embarrassing himself, because that doesn't even come into the process when reviewing, but because the tackle simply was not a red card offence that warrants a 3 match suspension. We lose out regardless at the time and that is the end of it.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby chalks on Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:49 pm

The referee 100% ruined what was turning into a really good performance, both from the team and from Feghouli. I really feel for him, he was bang up for it and up until that point was arguably our best performer

Also felt for Nordveidt to be honest. He is becoming a bit of a scapegoat, yet gave it absolutely everything, out of position. He was always going to be targeted by the opposition. If our current support base had any sense, they'd get behind him and give him more of a cheer, it would certainly help him, rather than the sarcastic crap getting thrown his way. Fortunately, in block 238, we are far enough back so the comments cant be heard. The pratt that sits behind me with his old man, oh dear oh dear. Most negative 'supporter' I've ever encountered. Havent yet heard him shout one piece of encouragement to any player, everything is a dig.

Reid was again outstanding, he's having one of his purple patches, as was Obiang, who just oozes class. Lanzini was also very good i thought. Payet could well have been our match winner, but going down to 10 men simply killed off the threat he gives us, which is opening up play. All in my opinion of course.

3 offside for the second goal just hammered home how poor the officials had been. The big team bias conspiracy theory is becoming more and more likely as far as I'm concerned. As for Jones, he's a disgrace. If you look at the footage taken from behind the incident, watch him rolling around screaming in mock agony. There's a split second where he opens his eyes and looks around. If some clever techy bod can get a screen shot of that, it will speak volumes. I'm surprised, considering he was clutching the leg that hadn't even been involved in the tackle, that there aren't calls for him to be charged with simulation

Lastly. Down to 10 men, 10 men who played there hearts out for the shirt, and on 77 minutes, when the second (OFFSIDE) goal went in, thousands streamed out again. That's not support. That's ****ing embarrassing. Please don't renew for next season. I'd rather we had 30k real supporters than the extra 25k that are making the rest of us look like mugs. The irony is that the only 3 blokes left in the row in front, were day trippers with half and half scarves on. The 'cor blimey Guvnor Westamfruandfru' Group had all ****ed off, again. ****ers.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby HammerMan2004 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:56 pm

chalks wrote:Lastly. Down to 10 men, 10 men who played there hearts out for the shirt, and on 77 minutes, when the second (OFFSIDE) goal went in, thousands streamed out again. That's not support. That's ****ing embarrassing. Please don't renew for next season. I'd rather we had 30k real supporters than the extra 25k that are making the rest of us look like mugs.


Agree with you entirely on Feghouli, he was well up for it.

Also this. It really pissed me off. Ok, so I can get streaming out against Arsenal at 4-1, maybe. But those 10 players very much deserved applause for their efforts at the end of the game. More definitely needs to be done to get like-minded fans to sit together.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby Crossd_Hammrs on Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:22 pm

hongkonghammer wrote: When a staunch Manc like Gary Neville even agrees its a ridiculous decision then not sure where the debate is on it being a red.


Just thought I'd point out that Neville coached Feghouli at Valencia last season. He could be on good terms with him.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby Macca1973 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:29 pm

rare as rockinghorse shat wrote:Of course there's subjectivity.

Opposed to that would be saying 'every decision is clear cut and easy'.

Why do you think there are appeals? Just due to referee incompetence?
It's because people can get difficult decisions wrong sometimes.


That's fine RARS but it means very little to us. All the appeal will mean is that we are not further punished for an offence we didn't commit. Yet again we have lost out on points as a direct result of these decisions in a 'big clubs' favour. Nothing will happen to Mike Dean and on and on it goes!
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby Gnome on Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:34 pm

rare as rockinghorse shat wrote:
I understand and appreciate the point and comparison.

My points I make are less focused on it being just a difficult job, but a job where there is undue influence, pressure and certainly less objective goals than, say, your nuclear power role, where I'd imagine all roles, responsibility and regulations are pretty black and white, without any scope for decision making error based on huge pressure from others in the immediate vicinity.

Have said nuclear worker with an assistant in his own lab, he'll perform adequately, at least.
Put said worker in a room full of cameras, with the board of directors looking on, the lunch room screaming at him about which buttons to press, then his performance would suffer.

If it didn't then he'd likely be the Pierluigi Collina of Springfield.

That's without deciding whether the button was interfering with play or not.


Ah but every (well the only) nuclear power station I have ever been in had all sorts of cameras monitoring workstations. I suspect there was a legal requirement for them to be there lest Homer press the big red button marked "do not press this button".

Legal requirement or not the cameras are there and anyone turning up to a job interview claiming "I can do the job but only if you turn off all the safety monitors because I don't function well under observation" would probably be shown the door (in any facility not actually owned by Mr Burns!).

I would argue that cameras, media scrutiny and analysis are all part and parcel of the top level of (one of the?) biggest leagues in the biggest sport in the world and if that's your chosen career you should be able to deal with it. If you can't you are in the wrong job.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby Crouchend_Hammer on Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:09 pm

Gnome wrote:
I would argue that cameras, media scrutiny and analysis are all part and parcel of the top level of (one of the?) biggest leagues in the biggest sport in the world and if that's your chosen career you should be able to deal with it. If you can't you are in the wrong job.


To me this is the main point

No conspiracies, no corruption, simply referees who are, in the main, not very good at working in the pressure filled environment that they now need to

Trouble is, the more bad press and abuse they get, the less likely people are going to want to do the job, and therefore the standard will get worse

As RARS says, the game needs to find a way to make the referee's jobs easier. Not so much from video evidence (IMHO) but more stiffer penalties for arguing, protesting etc, and greater clarity over the actual guidelines so that there is less ambiguity over what does and doesn't constitute a dangerous tackle
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby westham,eggyandchips on Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:41 pm

Am I right in thinking that football (soccer) is the only world renowned sport that doesn't use some sort of tv review system?

Makes you wonder why :hush:
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby TSmitty on Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:42 pm

Crossd_Hammrs wrote:
In his post-match comments, Bilic thought we would appeal.

He hasn't been selected for the AfCON.


Cheers CH I saw they said they would but couldn't find confirmation. I can now.
Be a shame if they made no effort, he's not really ready yet but I think Feggy will come good
If nowt else he seems to put the miles in.

I read that he was picked, now that he isn't. So I guess not.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby Crossd_Hammrs on Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:44 pm

rare as rockinghorse shat wrote:Whether a player slides first or second is immaterial. Jones got the ball first, got clattered. That's the long and short of the actual challenge.

A lot has been made of Jones feigning injury. Can anyone be sure that the bloke wasn't actually hurt?


I understand and agree with most of your reasoning, RARS - it's a similar incident, imho, to Noble against Liverpool last season when I said I understand how the ref saw a red card decision even though it wasn't one, because of the way Noble lunged in and due to Ing's dive.

In this incident I think the ref has to have been influenced by Jones, but not only that, it should only have been a yellow card for whatever he has (wrongly) perceived, presumably a late tackle.

The camera angle from the Man Utd goal shows the incident very clearly: Feghouli lurches for the ball after a poor touch - Jones lurches for the loose ball that he sees Fehouli sliding for and his lead foot clears the ball. But Jones trail leg scissors Feghouli's knee from a side-on angle.
Feghouli is pretty lucky to have come out of that without a ligament injury.

Watch Jones - was he really hurt? As he loses the momentum from his tackle, he jacks his body which makes it jump a few feet before rolling several times with his back arched as he rubs variuos parts of his trail leg before settling on his shinguard.
Reviewing the tackle shows that part of his leg made had eventually made contact with Feghouli's calf, but not in the initial contact.
So, was he really hurt badly enough to jack his body and roll over repeatedly while screaming in agony?

As mentioned already, after the challenge Dean turned away to follow play, but at the moment Jones begins his theatrics he looks back over his shoulder to see what the commotion is, sees Jones rolling around, then turns and blows his whistle.
If he had thought there was a foul wouldn't he have already put his whistle towards his mouth, ready to blow in case advantage was lost? Also, if he had turned away to allow advantage why did he not then allow the advantage? (Man Utd were in possession and making a counter attack). And if he thought it had been a foul (regardless of one severe enough for a red card) why did he need to inquisitively look back before turning back or blowing? The reason is pretty obviously because he was responding to the aftermath of the tackle, not the tackle itself that it seems he wasn't going to blow for.

If he had blown immediately and given a red card, then I could perhaps sympathise.
But what I can't understand here, is what has he thinks has happened? How can he be sure enough to make a decision?
As I said, if he thinks Feghouli has got there late, then it's a potential yellow card, isn't it? Unless he's gone in studs up, two-footed, from behind or in the air and none of those were the case.
There's only one explanation and that's that he's been influenced by Jones' histrionics and the couple of Manc players that ran over to him.

Perhaps he was haunted by media furore about the Barkley-Henderson incident he missed in his previous assignment?
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby rare as rockinghorse shat on Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:58 pm

As Crouchy says, it's give and take.

They may be in the wrong job, as you suggest Gnome, but I don't quite think the job is quite what many referees first signed up to.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby Devils Advocate on Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:28 pm

Article in today's Torygraph by Keith Hackett about the Feghouli sending off. He says it was a wrong decision, but more interestingly goes on to admit he was wrong to send off Tony Gale at Villa Park.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby PrinceH on Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:53 pm

fjthegrey wrote:It won't get rescinded.

We shouldn't bother to appeal.


I'm happy you got it totally wrong!!
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby fjthegrey on Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:55 pm

I have no faith in the system.

I don't know why anybody would.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby Denbighammer on Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:30 pm

westham,eggyandchips wrote:Am I right in thinking that football (soccer) is the only world renowned sport that doesn't use some sort of tv review system?

Makes you wonder why :hush:


Because is a huge number of cases, there is still a difference of opinion. The decision isn't clearcut at all.

How many times does player A get a light touch on the shin pad in the box, he goes down, a penalty is/isn't awarded.

Pundit A: "Definitely a pen, a clear foul as there is contact."
Pundit B: "There is contact but not enough to bring the player down. No pen."
Pundit C: "I can see why the ref has given it, its a bit soft though."
Pundit D: "Definitely not a pen, the attacking player has dived and should be booked for simulation"
Trevor Brooking: "Well, you know I'm not too sure I can see both sides of the argument...."

And the annoying thing is, they're all right in some way or other. Shirt pulling is another one. Football is the most multi-dimensional game there is. There are grey areas with its rules and always will be - that's part of the reason people love it.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread

Postby StevePottsGoalsReel on Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:37 pm

Denbighammer wrote:Football is the most multi-dimensional game there is. There are grey areas with its rules and always will be - that's part of the reason people love it.


I'm not sure that's actually true given some of the rules of rugby, American football, cricket, etc.

The key factor is which decisions can be significantly improved with the use of technology and, if so, what the process is for doing so and how it can be made clear to those in the ground and those watching on TV.
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