West Ham Utd 0-2 Manchester Utd (02/01/17)
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
I would rather Fegouhli had headbutted the **** .
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
I disagree. His integrity should be questioned at great length. You might have had a point had this been something of a one-off but Dean has been deliberately and wilfully making controversial decisions for around 15 years. One or two a season might be understandable but he does this pretty much every week.The Gibbins wrote:The referee had a really bad game but some of the comments and hate in the media are harsh. I think the FA need to have a word with him as the way he comes across does rub people up the wrong way, but i don't think his integrity should be questioned. He got the sending off completely wrong, the way i see it he has heard Phil Jones scream and roll around in what was a fairly dangerous 50/50 and panicked, from there it is pure guesswork and he just thinks Feghouli has laid one on him. Not saying it is right but you have to act and both players went in fairly reckless...i was disappointed because he gave himself time to think and should have seen the reactions all around him to the incident.
The problem is that he has been protected by PGMOL throughout - highlighting the sheer folly of keeping the assessment of referees in the hands of the one organisation that has a vested interest in pretending everything is ok. Which is why only 5 referees have been demoted since 2001 - and even one of those (Atwell who should never have been promoted in the first place) was quietly allowed back this season in the hope nobody would notice.
I'm not suggesting for a minute that there was anything involving outside influences going on last night, However, if you were some sort of dodgy betting syndicate who wanted to influence matches the current set-up is precisely what you would choose to have in place. After all, Dean has made so many of these perverse decisions over the years one more dubious sending-off will scarcely be noticed. It certainly won't be investigated.
The time for a quiet word with Dean was 15 years ago. Because that didn't happen he is now fireproof when he should be looking at an alternative career.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
Pulled this knob up at the Library years ago....nothing i've seen since has changed my opinion.
The standard of the refs these days is atrocious
The standard of the refs these days is atrocious
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
The thing is, Marcos Rojo has been involved in two worse recently and wasn't sent off for either. So it is no surprise that the club bias discussion starts.
The offside goal, which isn't Dean as such, was the worst decision of the two. I know the magnitude of playing with 10 men for 75 minutes against Man Utd, but we were still in the game until that goal and the linesman had a clear and crisp view of 3 offside players. I see no reason for that call not being made. It's either the linesman doesn't actually know how to do his job and therefore shouldn't be doing it at all, or he's influenced by Mourinho and Man Utd and doesn't want to put his flag up.
The offside goal, which isn't Dean as such, was the worst decision of the two. I know the magnitude of playing with 10 men for 75 minutes against Man Utd, but we were still in the game until that goal and the linesman had a clear and crisp view of 3 offside players. I see no reason for that call not being made. It's either the linesman doesn't actually know how to do his job and therefore shouldn't be doing it at all, or he's influenced by Mourinho and Man Utd and doesn't want to put his flag up.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
Obviously I was referring to the fact that referees are all working to daft regulations and directives which piles on pressure from the start.warp wrote:yes.
by their boss, not someone else's. as said, mourinho has no power over any referee's career.
unless of course his word has some weight on whether a referee referees or not...
Add to that any outside influence, which many workers experience, then it all compounds.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
Proud of the performance... some real positives to come out of that
RE the referee, it was a complete disgrace but not a surprise... I've not trusted the legitimacy of ref's decisions for years - if it happens so casually in the NBA (the finer details of the Donaghy case reveal some worrying trends in big money sports), it certainly can happen in the Premiership football. Not the betting side of things, but the directives to make certain decisions and to go easy on certain players / teams.
RE the referee, it was a complete disgrace but not a surprise... I've not trusted the legitimacy of ref's decisions for years - if it happens so casually in the NBA (the finer details of the Donaghy case reveal some worrying trends in big money sports), it certainly can happen in the Premiership football. Not the betting side of things, but the directives to make certain decisions and to go easy on certain players / teams.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
BBC confirming red card appeal to be made - no surprise there
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38497190" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38497190" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
If there really is institutional corruption then we might as well pack up and go home, frankly. It's easy to circumstantially post-rationalise hundreds of incidents, draw a trend line through them and come to a conclusion that there is corruption, but it is merely circumstantial.
I have thought for years that the big clubs do get decisions over smaller clubs but not because officials or the authorities are inherently and explicitly corrupt, but because the officials are indirectly influenced and swayed by the actions and words of the managers of the big clubs.
This was pioneered by Ferguson who realised that for a ref to stand a chance of refereeing cup finals or international tournaments they have to be refereeing the big domestic matches, and those inevitably involve the bigger clubs, and in his era, Man Utd.
Ferguson realised that by coming out after a match and saying "the referee was a disgrace, he should never be put in charge of a Man Utd game again", he puts the authorities in a no-win situation. Remove that referee from future Man Utd games and (a) it looks like Ferguson has won, and (b) that ref's career is damaged - if he can't referee Man Utd games how can he be put in charge of the prestigious games that he entered the profession to officiate? So the FA ends up fining the manager (big deal...) and puts the referee back out there. That's literally all they can do.
So how does the referee deal with the next big decision? Make it against Man Utd and Ferguson just says "I told you so" (triggering another fine, or a touchline ban...big deal...), and the referee is hung out to dry. So he makes it in Man Utd's favour. Ferguson is laughing (like Mourinho was last night) and the referee's career continues. The only loser being the smaller club who's been the victim of a clearly ridiculous decision, but they don't really matter anyway.
The thing is that this is a tactic only available to the bigger clubs...if a Ferguson, Mourinho, van Gaal, Wenger or Guardiola criticise a referee it puts incredible sub-conscious pressure on them to find in their favour next time round. If a Bilic says something, it simply doesn't matter.
Last night's incident was a classic. There is rightful outcry because the decision was so diabolical. But imagine the furore there would have been if Dean had (possibly justifiably) sent off Jones instead of Feghouli and we'd have gone on to win 2-0? Or if he'd booked neither player and we'd have gone on to win? Imagine what Mourinho would have said if our second goal had been so blatantly and ridiculously offside? I don't believe Dean was corrupt, but I do believe he was indirectly influenced.
I don't know what the solution is. I don't want video replays or a video ref and I don't want to gag managers. I'd like to see post-match citing like in rugby but my fear is that the same pressure not to punish the big clubs will be exerted during that process as well.
I'd like managers to be properly punished (full seven day suspension from all footballing activities, like they do with players?), and I'd like refs to come out and explain what they saw and why they came to a certain conclusion. I'd also like there to be the facility for the authorities to review and reverse all decisions - not just mistaken identity and wrongly given reds - when a referee has so clearly made a genuine mistake. Give Jones a red card for clear simulation when they rescind Feghouli's (hopefully). It gives the referee more authority knowing that they don't have to get every decision right on the day for players to get punished, not less as seems to be the FA's view.
Glad to have got that off my chest...
I have thought for years that the big clubs do get decisions over smaller clubs but not because officials or the authorities are inherently and explicitly corrupt, but because the officials are indirectly influenced and swayed by the actions and words of the managers of the big clubs.
This was pioneered by Ferguson who realised that for a ref to stand a chance of refereeing cup finals or international tournaments they have to be refereeing the big domestic matches, and those inevitably involve the bigger clubs, and in his era, Man Utd.
Ferguson realised that by coming out after a match and saying "the referee was a disgrace, he should never be put in charge of a Man Utd game again", he puts the authorities in a no-win situation. Remove that referee from future Man Utd games and (a) it looks like Ferguson has won, and (b) that ref's career is damaged - if he can't referee Man Utd games how can he be put in charge of the prestigious games that he entered the profession to officiate? So the FA ends up fining the manager (big deal...) and puts the referee back out there. That's literally all they can do.
So how does the referee deal with the next big decision? Make it against Man Utd and Ferguson just says "I told you so" (triggering another fine, or a touchline ban...big deal...), and the referee is hung out to dry. So he makes it in Man Utd's favour. Ferguson is laughing (like Mourinho was last night) and the referee's career continues. The only loser being the smaller club who's been the victim of a clearly ridiculous decision, but they don't really matter anyway.
The thing is that this is a tactic only available to the bigger clubs...if a Ferguson, Mourinho, van Gaal, Wenger or Guardiola criticise a referee it puts incredible sub-conscious pressure on them to find in their favour next time round. If a Bilic says something, it simply doesn't matter.
Last night's incident was a classic. There is rightful outcry because the decision was so diabolical. But imagine the furore there would have been if Dean had (possibly justifiably) sent off Jones instead of Feghouli and we'd have gone on to win 2-0? Or if he'd booked neither player and we'd have gone on to win? Imagine what Mourinho would have said if our second goal had been so blatantly and ridiculously offside? I don't believe Dean was corrupt, but I do believe he was indirectly influenced.
I don't know what the solution is. I don't want video replays or a video ref and I don't want to gag managers. I'd like to see post-match citing like in rugby but my fear is that the same pressure not to punish the big clubs will be exerted during that process as well.
I'd like managers to be properly punished (full seven day suspension from all footballing activities, like they do with players?), and I'd like refs to come out and explain what they saw and why they came to a certain conclusion. I'd also like there to be the facility for the authorities to review and reverse all decisions - not just mistaken identity and wrongly given reds - when a referee has so clearly made a genuine mistake. Give Jones a red card for clear simulation when they rescind Feghouli's (hopefully). It gives the referee more authority knowing that they don't have to get every decision right on the day for players to get punished, not less as seems to be the FA's view.
Glad to have got that off my chest...
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
does anything happen to the referee in these situations?
frustrating that there is no repercussions for them. few lads around me were saying if they consistently get it wrong they drop down to referee the lower leagues.
all seems a bit bull ****
frustrating that there is no repercussions for them. few lads around me were saying if they consistently get it wrong they drop down to referee the lower leagues.
all seems a bit bull ****
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
We did get a properly dodgy penalty against Hull which won us that game.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
After years of putting up with dogshit decisions, it was long overdue too.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
As Gary Neville highlighted, Mike Dean was so concerned by the tackle that he followed the play after the incident rather than stop the game.
He panicked after because he heard Jones screaming like a p*ssy and writing round on the floor like his leg had been blown off. Overlooking the fact that Dean is a bit of a diva and full of his own self importance, I blame Jones for his blatant play acting. Rolling about writhing in 'agony' in the hope of mercy, as it was in fact he who intentionally went in to hurt, and he thought it was he who was about to get sent off.
Just once I would love a manager to blast his own player for play acting in the post match press conference.
I don't think it will ever be Mourinho. He was asked directly his thoughts on the red card and somehow he manipulated the conversation to his hard luck against refereeing decisions. Not even Man Uniteds. His.
He panicked after because he heard Jones screaming like a p*ssy and writing round on the floor like his leg had been blown off. Overlooking the fact that Dean is a bit of a diva and full of his own self importance, I blame Jones for his blatant play acting. Rolling about writhing in 'agony' in the hope of mercy, as it was in fact he who intentionally went in to hurt, and he thought it was he who was about to get sent off.
Just once I would love a manager to blast his own player for play acting in the post match press conference.
I don't think it will ever be Mourinho. He was asked directly his thoughts on the red card and somehow he manipulated the conversation to his hard luck against refereeing decisions. Not even Man Uniteds. His.
Last edited by Czech Hammer on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- The Gibbins
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
The problem i have with Phil Jones is he doesn't even hold the correct leg when rolling around :lol:
He is a complete spud head, by far the weirdest looking footballer in the league, he is a mixture between Pob and a potato
He is a complete spud head, by far the weirdest looking footballer in the league, he is a mixture between Pob and a potato
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
apologies if already asked, but is Feghoulli not off to the African Nations, therefore it would be academic whether we appeal his card or not?fjthegrey wrote:It won't get rescinded.
We shouldn't bother to appeal.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
Its only the 3rd Jan but I doubt I will Jonny Moncur with a post word for word more throughout 2017 in its entiretyThe Gibbins wrote:The problem i have with Phil Jones is he doesn't even hold the correct leg when rolling around :lol:
He is a complete spud head, by far the weirdest looking footballer in the league, he is a mixture between Pob and a potato
Though I actually thought I was the only one who noticed Jones was holding the wrong leg
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But it does not alter the fact that Dean did not do his job last night. Neither did his linesmen.
They are paid well as professional referees.
If I performed to that poor standard in my profession, I'd expect to be sacked.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
This is undoubtedly true.rare as rockinghorse shat wrote: I think refereeing is very hard. Add to that the scrutiny they receive, the amount of constantly changing grey area directives they must follow and top it off with the lack of protection, then it is no wonder many make mistakes.
But it does not alter the fact that Dean did not do his job last night. Neither did his linesmen.
They are paid well as professional referees.
If I performed to that poor standard in my profession, I'd expect to be sacked.
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
Or maybe he should have resorted to Jones' tactics and started a face off breakdancing routine. The winner stays on and the loser gets a red card.The Old Man of Storr wrote:Of course it didn't help our position by the way Feghouli looked back expecting some sort of punishment , he should have got up and ran back to take up his position the same as 99.9% of players do .
Ah well .
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Re: West Ham United V Manchester United: Match Thread
So many parties to gain so much from certain clubs succeeding.
Of course it's corrupt.
And that's why top level football is boring.
Of course it's corrupt.
And that's why top level football is boring.