Watford 1-1 West Ham Utd (25/02/17)

Relive every moment of every first team game since the beginning of the 2005/06 season. Our archive of matchday threads originally posted in the General Discussion Forum.

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brooking1966
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by brooking1966 »

Jumby wrote:I don't know if I trust Kouyate to go a full 90 mins and not, at any point, look like a clueless gangly retard that's wandered onto the pitch in kit unnoticed. He lacks discipline when he plays in midfield, I feel like he's only safe in central defence where he knows he can't f**k about.
Rubbish :thdn:
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by Wilko1304 »

How quickly people have forgotten just how bad Cheik was at the start of the year.

Obiang isn't a natural holding midfielder, and him and Noble are more likely to keep a smarter balance with better play on the ball than Kouyate. However, neither get up and down the pitch, have the strength or the athleticism that Cheik has.

I'd like to see us try the three of them in midfield, probably only in games against better teams. It would add balance to the middle of the park, could allow Lanzini a free role too, but limits who we pick. Lanzini/Snoddy/Antonio/Carroll/Feghouli into three places, but given how Carroll has been so isolated against better teams then that may be the way forward against your City's etc.

We have some good conundrums in this team, which only further highlights how bizarre our transfer policy has been and how unbalanced we are.
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by Stepney »

I'm gona go for a hard-fought 1-2. I think Snodgrass may well open his account as well....
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by dartfordhammer2012 »

We seem to have tried a multitude of variations to solve the right back problem we played Fernandes there in the cup match against Chelsea had a great game was good going forward and defended well also scored and since then never been played there again!! :eh:
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

Seems very short sighted to comment on Kouyate's form in midfield at beginning of season when we were in total disarray as a team and everyone, bar Antonio, was a bit ****.
let's not for get his solid performances last season playing in CM.
Playing in mifield is a different proposition now with Obiang in there and Snodgrass adding some bite.

Has Kouyate lined up in midfield with Obiang and Lanzini yet at any point? I am not advocating leaving Noble out, far from it, just can't remember if that combination of three has ever been played.

Personally prefer kouyate in midfield as he adds a bit of athleticism, height and thrust that Obiang and Noble are not quite as good at providing.

I don't think Bilic wants to make the decision as to which of Kouyate, Obiang or Noble to leave out so can see him playing kouyate at RB or as part of a back 3 for the foreseeable future
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by hammerman11 »

Noble is coming towards the end of his guaranteed spot in first team. Hes been great but obiang and kouyate need to be paired.

Cheik does go wandering but he has also been our star player in midfield many times.

a midfield 4 of antonio obiang kouyate snodgrass

behind lanzini and carroll

worth a go until we get our second striker !
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by YorksHammer »

The trouble is that Obiang and Kouyate have significantly poorer passing skills than Noble. Per 90 minutes this season Noble has made ten more passes than Obiang on average and twenty more than Kouyate. Given that Kouyate has played largely at CB for us this year I checked last years stats too and they're similar in comparison.

When you add in that they both have lower pass completion percentage than Noble, it's clear to see what we lose by not playing him in favour of those two - we lose someone who is, very much, at the heart of everything we do in terms of getting on the ball and moving it around. That's not to say that one of them wouldn't make more passes with Noble not being there, but they'd be less good at making them.

The best replacement for Noble in terms of passing ability that we have is Lanzini. Whether we'd want to go with that or not, I don't know, but his stats are similar to Noble's for this season and last. A Lanzini/Obiang partnership, behind Ayew, Snodgrass, Antonio and Carroll, might be our best option if we were to go without Noble.

As for this match - they'll get a scrappy win.
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by ironstu »

Crying out for a Snodgrass goal this game is. Hopefully from a 30 yard free kick.
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by Claretdave »

Mark Noble is a very good player who I hope continues to serve West Ham for the next four or five seasons.

The question is clearly how we fit four into three.
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by DDHammer »

YorksHammer wrote:The trouble is that Obiang and Kouyate have significantly poorer passing skills than Noble. Per 90 minutes this season Noble has made ten more passes than Obiang on average and twenty more than Kouyate. Given that Kouyate has played largely at CB for us this year I checked last years stats too and they're similar in comparison.

When you add in that they both have lower pass completion percentage than Noble, it's clear to see what we lose by not playing him in favour of those two - we lose someone who is, very much, at the heart of everything we do in terms of getting on the ball and moving it around. That's not to say that one of them wouldn't make more passes with Noble not being there, but they'd be less good at making them
Is it that significant though? Kouyate has an 86% short pass completion from midfield this season, Obiang 84%, Noble 89%.

Kouyate 80% tackles, Obiang 73%, Noble 56%.

Interceptions - Kouyate 27, Obiang 29, Noble 25. Kouyate has played 1000 minutes less in midfield.

It's whether winning the ball back a lot more in the middle of the park is more important than a few percent in passing.

I think we'll win this 2-1 whatever team or formation we put out. Feghouli and Carroll with the goals.
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by Patito »

YorksHammer wrote:The trouble is that Obiang and Kouyate have significantly poorer passing skills than Noble.

Obiang's range of passing is fantastic IMO.
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by YorksHammer »

DDHammer wrote:Is it that significant though? Kouyate has an 86% short pass completion from midfield this season, Obiang 84%, Noble 89%.

Kouyate 80% tackles, Obiang 73%, Noble 56%.

Interceptions - Kouyate 27, Obiang 29, Noble 25. Kouyate has played 1000 minutes less in midfield.

It's whether winning the ball back a lot more in the middle of the park is more important than a few percent in passing.
It's a fair point - although a condition is that Kouyate has played at CB this season a lot more than at CM so has more opportunity to make tackles/interceptions etc.

But think about it in this sense - Noble has made 1100 total passes this season compared to Obiang's 682 and Kouyate's 663. When you take into account %completion (Noble = 87%, based on Squawka) that means that Noble has completed more passes than Obiang or Kouyate have even attempted this season. It's not that either Obiang or Kouyate are a bad passer, exactly, just that they make and complete less passes than Noble.

Ultimately I think we want one ball winner (Obiang or Kouyate) and one passer (Noble or Lanzini) to be our middle two. That way the winner, well, wins the ball and then plays a simple pass to the passer to actually create something. You don't want to play with two winners or two passers because you don't have the ability to do the other, if that makes sense.

It's why I feel that Obiang and Kouyate wouldn't work as a pairing - I didn't think they were especially good against Man United, although that was somewhat mitigated by Feghouli getting sent off so early on. I suppose when you're expecting to not have as much as the ball then Obiang and Kouyate could work, though, maybe with Lanzini just ahead of them?

I see the official site has just put up an article about Masuaku being fit again - any chance we see him in this one?
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by thejackhammer »

I would start Masuaku, Cresswell needs a boot up his keister.
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

YorksHammer wrote:
But think about it in this sense - Noble has made 1100 total passes this season compared to Obiang's 682 and Kouyate's 663. When you take into account %completion (Noble = 87%, based on Squawka) that means that Noble has completed more passes than Obiang or Kouyate have even attempted this season. It's not that either Obiang or Kouyate are a bad passer, exactly, just that they make and complete less passes than Noble.

Ultimately I think we want one ball winner (Obiang or Kouyate) and one passer (Noble or Lanzini) to be our middle two. That way the winner, well, wins the ball and then plays a simple pass to the passer to actually create something. You don't want to play with two winners or two passers because you don't have the ability to do the other, if that makes sense.

It's why I feel that Obiang and Kouyate wouldn't work as a pairing - I didn't think they were especially good against Man United, although that was somewhat mitigated by Feghouli getting sent off so early on. I suppose when you're expecting to not have as much as the ball then Obiang and Kouyate could work, though, maybe with Lanzini just ahead of them?

I see the official site has just put up an article about Masuaku being fit again - any chance we see him in this one?
The question for me is whether Obiang could actually play the Noble role if required. He is a fantastic long passer of the ball and has a very good touch. Could he take on the mantle as the one who gets the ball and does all the little short passes Noble is very good at?

That final paragraph leads me back to the question of whether Obiang, Kouyate and Lanzini have ever played together in the middle of the park?
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by Carlton'sGoal »

Patito wrote:Obiang's range of passing is fantastic IMO.

Seconded
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by Burnley Hammer »

I don't think it's a case of Obiang not being able to do short simple passes. It's more of a case of it's not his style. He looks like a player who likes to turn defence into attack quickly - which will inevitably mean a lower pass success rate. Those kind of passes rely on runners being on the same wavelength, and are also more likely to be intercepted - as is any long pass over a shorter pass. Any decent passer of the ball is capable of doing lots of simple short passes in his defensive half - if he wants to or is instructed to. Pass success rates don't tell the whole story. Kouyate has a pretty decent score, but when I watch him play, he looks like a player who's aware of his own limitations and more often than not plays a very simple pass. Noble - when he wants to - is capable of good vision and a good long defence splitting pass. I'd like to see him do this more - even if it results in a lower pass success stat for him. These kind of passes from Noble seem to occur most often when he doesn't think too much. It seems to me like the longer he holds onto the ball, the more indecisive he gets. I really don't get why we have to have a passer partnered with a tackler. Why can't we have 2 players who can do both? A traditional central midfield player always used to be perfectly capable of both.
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by Jeffcoate321 »

I'm with you there. He has a fantastic range of passing.
The West Brom game displayed that. If you didn't know it already.
Crouchend_Hammer wrote: The question for me is whether Obiang could actually play the Noble role if required. He is a fantastic long passer of the ball and has a very good touch. Could he take on the mantle as the one who gets the ball and does all the little short passes Noble is very good at?
Yes, the assist for Carroll vs Soton is a perfect example.
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by Topbre_22 »

He (Obiang) always gets his head up to play the penetrative pass.
IMHO he's the first name to be placed into that CM spot.
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by hammerleroy »

Beware Mr Zarate! Just sayin'................... :wink:
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Re: Watford v West Ham Utd match thread

Post by thejackhammer »

Niang will score. Nailed on.
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