Manchester Utd 4-0 West Ham Utd (13/08/17)

An archive of match day threads originally posted in the General Discussion forum.

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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby PrinceH on Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:06 pm

Please breath before you post.

How come a few people here on react so fast? They can hardly take one breath before they have decided that some player is not good enough to wear our shirt? They may have done tens or hundreds of really good games before, and they may be an integral part of the team that Bilic builds, but if they have a bad day, sometimes just make one mistake, they ought to be sold or heakled to death...
That is not how you build a team. Mistakes will always happen, and most of them goes unnoticed as there are cover to come in from other players on the field. It's much easier to have an invisible game, than trying to much. (But it can still be the invisible ones that make you lose the game.)

No offense to anyone special. We are all in it together....

Bilic have to find the clues. Now. He has been given good keys to do that.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby Rays Rock on Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:07 pm

DannyboyDJL wrote:
We back off because we are slow and the midfield doesn't have the energy to press. To press high up the pitch, the whole team has to be able to do it. As soon as we did press, Matic just put a ball over the top and they were in.

Something is wrong, whether it's desire, fitness or concentration we are just too easy to get at. It's so simple.


We end up chasing nearly every game as we are a non dominant midfield. Thrrefore we run out of gas.
We look like we set up to drop off but absolutely none of our midfield are comfortable out of possesion, they are all ball players.
Its very trendy to win and compete with minimal possesion, thats fine, but you have to a) have at least one midfielder comfortable to be out of possesion b) set up correctly to deal with this and convert any turn over into either attack or ball refention.
We are incapable of either !!!
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby tizzwoz on Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:14 pm

Obviously a lot of negativity following our collapse yesterday. To take some postitves?

Zabaletta - I thought Zaba had a good game. I've read some people knocking him. Not sure how. He was isolated (ayew) against 2 of the fastest players in the league, first Rashford, then Martial. Zaba showed great commitment and if we had 11 players like him yesterday, we would not have conceded 4 and given up the way we did.

Hernandez looked bright. If anything, his quality touches and turns just highlighted how much better he is than the rest of our team. I just hope he doesn't get frustrated this season and jack it in.

Joe Hart - Sounds a bit silly considering we shipped 4 goals, but I thought Hart was relatively solid. Couldn't do anything about the goals. Its important he has a run of games without any clangers. Last thing we need is the media and analysts killing him and his confidence.

The negatives?
Obiang - I gotta say Obiang was appalling. The guy has been lauded on this site in recent months. I never understood why. Given time and space, yes he picks a pass, but when hurried, the guy is a calamity. He wasn't allowed any time on the ball and he caved under pressure. In short, he's too slow. I dont mean just in speed, but in picking his passes. If we got Carvalho, he'd be the one id bench i think.

Ayew - Have never understood his signing. Again, many over the summer were saying this will be his season. Based on what? Because he tapped home a few sitters at the end of last season? The guy has no position... Or at least we have no position for him. He is ridiculously slow... embarrassingly slow even. Even with a 3 yard head start over Phil Jones, he was beaten to the ball. Obviously once players are fit, he'll drop to the bench, but allowing our 20m signing to rot on a bench makes zero sense. Id be getting rid, and fast.

Arnie - This is a tough one. I wasn't a big fan of this signing. He's considered a maverick, but Ive never really been convinced of his ability to control or change a game. What does he offer? Goals? He got 6 league goals last season. Assists? He got 5. Hardly earth shattering figures those. So what else? He's not a crosser. His delivery from dead balls was appalling. Speed? Hardly. Im just not sure what he gives us. However, that said, this was not a game for him. And thats on bilic. Arnie might have to be used sparingly this season against top sides.

Bilic - Im glad the board have stumped up cash this summer, even though one or 2 signings would not have been signings id make. What it means now is that fans cannot keep blaming the board. Bilic will now stand or fall by our results and performances. Before yesterdays game, I predicted Bilic to be the first to be sacked (pessimist i know). Now, a defeat to United in game 1 doesn't get you sacked. Particularly when I expect United to go on and win the title. But Bilic has never convinced me. The team capitualtes after we concede. He has never showed he has a plan B... Sometimes even failing to have a plan A. I want him to succeed. I really do. And just hope that we keep a clean sheet against goal shy Southampton next week and manage to bag a goal or 2.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby warp on Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:20 pm

PrinceH wrote:How come a few people here on react so fast?

personally, it's the meth.
i'd have the reflexes of a sloth if it wasn't for it.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby Beavis Danzig on Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:24 pm

Rays Rock wrote:We end up chasing nearly every game as we are a non dominant midfield. Thrrefore we run out of gas.
We look like we set up to drop off but absolutely none of our midfield are comfortable out of possesion, they are all ball players.
Its very trendy to win and compete with minimal possesion, thats fine, but you have to a) have at least one midfielder comfortable to be out of possesion b) set up correctly to deal with this and convert any turn over into either attack or ball refention.
We are incapable of either !!!


we look fine against teams on our level where we see the ball, infact we routinely play much more attractive football than them.

we have a very different approach to big games to a club like leicester, who do the absolute fundamental basics of what a counter attacking teams needs to do. win the ball and play it over the top for vardy to run into. that's their plan A and B.

slav's ideal is for us to draw them in and slice through them with quick one touch passing. we do have the players for it (at least when fit), but not the players who can maintain that level without seeing the ball for 20 minutes, which is what routinely happened against man city and happened yesterday. it takes a five minute spell of decent possession before we can even remember how to play football (not just the two centre backs knocking back and forth).

the annoying thing about yesterday is that we weathered the storm and had those confidence building five minutes just prior to obiang's **** up.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby StackerJJ on Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:35 pm

I know we lost 4-0 but I look at it this way.

I personally think that for 60 minutes we defended okay to say the least. We certainly weren't fantastic but we weren't awful either. However after the second Lukaku goal Bilic chucked on another forward and left our already frail midfield exposed by arguably the strongest midfield in the premier league this year. (Matic breaking up play and distributing, Pogba box to box and Mata creating spaces all over the park) we went to a 4 - 2 - 4 and pushed to get ourselves back into it. This was going to go one of 2 ways, we score and put them under pressure or we concede more.

Mow I know from experience reading this forum that if Bilic would have brought on Rice and Collins at half time and tried to keep it at 1-0 and maybe nick a goal people would have gone nuts at how defensive he was. After the second Lukaku goal (no idea why anybody thought Masuaku could do a job on Lukaku) Bilic was damned if he did and damned if he didnt but to say that we are defensively poor after that result is jumping the gun a little imo.

I know last year we were poor at time but watching yesterday I have a lot more confidence after yesterday (4-0 drubbing aside) that we look alot more organised than last year.

Yesterday was a case of chasing a game and leaving ourselves open and on the hook, Man Utd punished us (as you would expect them too).

Playing they lesser sides it wont be an issue I'm pretty confident on that.

I would like to see us go 5 along the back against the big boys.
Hart
Zaba - Reid - Fonte/Collins - Ogbonna - Cresswell

Think it will help.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby davids cross on Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:38 pm

If we had lost 4-0 at the end of November, having had a fairly decent run, I doubt too many would batter an eye lid about such a defeat at Old Trafford.

An opening fixture magnifies expectation and doubles disappointment.

We were bloody awful. That's it.

Learn. Move on.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby daveo on Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:28 pm

davids cross wrote:If we had lost 4-0 at the end of November, having had a fairly decent run, I doubt too many would batter an eye lid about such a defeat at Old Trafford.

An opening fixture magnifies expectation and doubles disappointment.

We were bloody awful. That's it.

Learn. Move on.


Totally agree and very well put...
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby steviob125 on Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:53 pm

davids cross wrote:
Learn


Time will tell, but history says we haven't, and won't
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby IanBishopLegend7 on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:16 pm

Setting up against Man Utd is a challenge in any season.

My problem is how easy it was for Mourinho to set up against us.

Mark Chicarito out of the game.

Stop Arnie cutting inside.

Close the midfield down quickly and they will fold.

Job done.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby Porkeyes on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:17 pm

Watching that gormless **** Jones crashing into our players without reply all game was making my blood boil. He's one of those I want to vent my anger at in the return fixture but he'll be too far away to hear my abuse and let's not forget him rolling around last year for the Feghouli dismissal. :thdn:
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby warp on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:19 pm

IanBishopLegend7 wrote:Setting up against Man Utd is a challenge in any season.

My problem is how easy it was for Mourinho to set up against us.

Mark Chicarito out of the game.

Stop Arnie cutting inside.

Close the midfield down quickly and they will fold.

Job done.


you do that and you win against most teams.
the plan is easy to conceive, not always to execute. became easy after their second went in.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby steviob125 on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:24 pm

IanBishopLegend7 wrote:Setting up against Man Utd is a challenge in any season.

My problem is how easy it was for Mourinho to set up against us.

Mark Chicarito out of the game.

Stop Arnie cutting inside.

Close the midfield down quickly and they will fold.

Job done.


I know what you're saying, but you could say the same about most teams in the premier league, not all are blessed with 4 or 5 world class players

additionally, its one thing knowing how to stop us, and another thing entirely going out and doing it. United did. which is why the won
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby Beavis Danzig on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:25 pm

it was a masterful job of matic to avoid a yellow. if he got one early doors it would've been a completely different game but his fouls were just subtle and spaced out enough that there was never any fuss or hint of thin ice. our players were more than happy to get fouled too as it meant we held onto possession for another fifteen seconds.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby westhamerica on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:41 pm

DannyboyDJL wrote:Something is wrong, whether it's desire, fitness or concentration we are just too easy to get at. It's so simple.


It's almost like our 25 million pound defense had a tough time dealing with 250 million pounds of attack.
Last edited by westhamerica on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby CentenaryUpperHammer on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:46 pm

I'm not too sure who was supposed to be helping Zabaleta cover that right hand side, but dear me, they really sold him out there. Absolutely left exposed every time they came forward. Was a real shame to see him thrown to the Wolves like that. Bit of a disgrace really.

Again, something that I've pointed out before, was that we never looked on pace with their players. Even if we did try and pressure, the players didn't have the stamina for that. If you then allow players like Pogba, Matic, Mkhyitarian to take 3/4 touches before a half arsed attempt is made, they will pick you apart.

Obiang didn't look great but I think that half lies on the fact he was covering for the other players on the pitch who were struggling. Fernandes & in some part Noble who gave him little to nothing going forward. Put that together with Man United pressing, Obiang would have to make split second decisions but was given no real outlets apart from playing it back to Reid/Ogbonna who both didn't seem interested in playing out.

Arnie shouldn't be on free-kicks unless he plans on shooting.

Ayew offered little. Still hard to see how he will keep his place when Antonio returns.

All in all, a bit of a shitter. Would love to see some in-depth stats on heatmaps/player positions etc.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby davids cross on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:52 pm

CentenaryUpperHammer wrote:Arnie shouldn't be on free-kicks unless he plans on shooting.


Having watched the pre season matches, I had convinced myself that Arnie was double clever. He was saving all his good stuff for when it mattered..........ala Shane Warne with his first delivery against Gatting .

Just wait for the opening day I thought...


Well, I did.........and he hadn't... Image
Last edited by davids cross on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby warp on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:52 pm

ayew is not a player you want on the pitch if you plan on defending a lot, he doesn't help in defense and doesn't create much going forward.

if you are more attacking, he's a good inside forward that will get into dangerous positions in the box.
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby Andy.C on Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:00 pm

My mates a united season ticket holder and he said that's the best they have played for two years
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Re: Manchester United vs West Ham United match thread

Postby Ozza on Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:02 pm

Andy.C wrote:My mates a united season ticket holder and he said that's the best they have played for two years


There's a reason moaninhio looks so chilled this season and not stressed and pissed off, he knows he's got an outstanding squad
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