Liverpool 4-0 West Ham Utd (12/08/18)

An archive of match day threads originally posted in the General Discussion forum.

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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby e-20 on Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:52 pm

James P wrote:The time shown on the board is the minimum amount of injury time to be played. Always has been.



True though more than once I have seen less than the specified time played. Though to be fair more often abroad than here.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby Patito on Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:17 am

The added time rule is quite simple really: if the top 6 club are in the lead then the ref must blow up on the second the additional time is up, regardless if the ball has hardly been in play.

If the top 6 club are looking for an equaliser or a winner, then double the added time.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby retro on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:07 am

With this new offside rubbish couldn't we camp an injured Carroll in the box take the ball to the corner flag and
cross it to him.
He wouldn't be interfering with the play by the spirit of the rule and the cross would play him onside as he would be behind the ball. GOAL!!
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby Beavis Danzig on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:39 am

if we play an offside trap, it relies on the officials doing their jobs and giving us the benefit of the doubt.

can't see it working till VAR comes in.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby The Old Man of Storr on Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:25 am

Beavis Danzig wrote:if we play an offside trap, it relies on the officials doing their jobs and giving us the benefit of the doubt.

can't see it working till VAR comes in.



I agree - I thought I knew how that new offside rule works but the way I interpreted it I wouldn't have allowed Salah's goal to stand - according to the old rules he was obviously offside then he stops his run and waits until he's level with our last defenders , receives the pass and scores - this new ruling makes it more complicated for fan and official alike and seems more open to interpretation than before . By interpretation I mean of course , in favour to whoever West Ham play . :)
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby binary on Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:39 am

Just seen that some Liverpool fans are still commenting that the ref and linesman are against them. Not sure how they can justify that one considering the huge opening day gift they just got from them.

Glad to get that tie out of the way to be honest. There will be worse times to play Liverpool this season.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby James P on Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:10 pm

The Old Man of Storr wrote: I agree - I thought I knew how that new offside rule works but the way I interpreted it I wouldn't have allowed Salah's goal to stand - according to the old rules he was obviously offside then he stops his run and waits until he's level with our last defenders , receives the pass and scores - this new ruling makes it more complicated for fan and official alike and seems more open to interpretation than before . By interpretation I mean of course , in favour to whoever West Ham play . :)


It's been decades since Salah would have been flagged offside when the ball is passed to Robertson. We can't complain about that one.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby Beavis Danzig on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:05 pm

i don't understand how gnasher wasn't offside for the second despite being five yards out standing next to the goalie.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby spod on Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:25 pm

Just read through this entire grisly thread as my penance for missing the game and having not had to suffer 90+ minutes of torture.
Glad the offside debate is still raging. The second goal is definitively ONSIDE as shown by the slide 26 of this graphic. https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_11_offside_en_47383.pdf

I've spent most of the day looking this up, and I have to say the law is still a fudge. No one seems to want to explain what defines the beginning or end of a phase, for instance.
Plus, you're offside if a defender blocks a shot deliberately, but not if they block it accidentally. So referees now have to read minds, apparently.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby spod on Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:30 pm

In other, less grindingly tedious news, we all seem to be split into two camps.
The broadly optimistic:
it was Liverpool, the second toughest game of the season, you can't judge anything after one game, our players haven't gelled, they're not used to the tactics, it'll come right in the end, in Pell we trust, roll on Bournemouth.
The broadly pessimistic:
we knew the midfield was slow, why didn't we focus on getting a good DM?, how can you play a high line against a team like Liverpool?, what was Pellegrini thinking?, why didn't he change anything?, Antonio's lazy, Masuaku can't defend.

Overall, if you take it as one game, I'd say all the deficiencies we displayed were the ones we all knew about before the game kicked off. It was such a familiar capitulation it was just depressing to watch.
However, I believe that Pellegrini's most important tactical work will be when he reviews matches with the players. There's only so much you can teach or learn in half-speed friendlies against moderate opposition. Now the learning curve should be steep.
It bloody better be.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby Crouchend_Hammer on Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:34 pm

One game in and we already have the multitude of posts moaning about refereeing decisions/ Sky conspiracy/ poor little old West Ham blah blah!

We lost because we were pony

VAR will be in place next season. The other 4 big leagues are using it this year, so no reason to suggest we won't have it

However, VAR wouldn't help with goal 2 as that it still down to interpretation of the law. The changes in offside laws are stupid IMHO (and make it almost impossible to defend in certain situations) but they are what they are
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:47 pm

Defend the ball until the flag goes up and the referees whistle rules either goal or offside..

no excuses..

Excuses give power to the wrong stuff. They weaken your integrity. They give the responsibility to someone or something else.

At West Point, they have a tradition. For the first year there, you can only make four responses to an upperclassman. They are “Yes sir,” “No sir,” “I didn’t understand the question, sir” and No excuse, sir.” They apparently believe that if you never let an excuse come out of your mouth for one full year, you can change your thinking.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby Crossd_Hammrs on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:15 pm

James P wrote:The time shown on the board is the minimum amount of injury time to be played. Always has been.
JLCABA wrote:So ( given there are no fouls .. substitutions etc etc ) what makes a ref decide how long of is enough
I asked this very same question last season (or previous) after we'd conceded a losing goal in extra, extra stoppage time, long after the minimum had expired. And there was another occasion we had an opponent score in injury time, the ref allowed their celebrations for about a minute and half then blew the whistle as soon as we could kick off. How come no stoppages were added for that? A further time we were breaking on the counter attack when awarded a free kick that the ref then didn't allow to be taken - the point of a free kick is to penalise the offending team, not reward them!

ageing hammer wrote:Depends on if West Ham are winning or losing, if we are winning it can be 3 or 4 mins more added on, if we are losing it is blown up bang on time.
Is the only feasible explanation I can find.

Allowing refs to add on their own additional time risks opening a can of worms when they do so for no apparent reason.
But I'm always flabbergasted by the lack of transparency from The FA and the Referee's Association. It's one thing being supportive of the refs, it's another making them unanswerable for their decisions. And people claim there's no corruption in English football.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby Crouchend_Hammer on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:25 pm

Cuenca 'ammer wrote:Defend the ball until the flag goes up and the referees whistle rules either goal or offside..

no excuses..

]


The 2nd goal is almost impossible to defend against as a defender, As a back four you are looking along the line. You see the three central players in the box and you push up to play them offside. This is the sensible decision as the intended receiver was one of these three players and thus if they receive it directly (which was the aim of the pass) they are offside, job done

It is very difficult (almost impossible) to spot the runner on the flank making a run, because until the ball missed the front three in the box, Milner was not really attacking the box. He only did that after he realised the ball may make it all the way across, and tbf, he was very alert.

The only option to prevent a goal in this case (except for Andersen following Milner) would have been if the back four didn't push up and stayed right back in the six yard box marking the central attackers. This would have been madness IMHO given the passage of play, as defending that close to your goal line is not a good idea.

I doubt Firmino/ Mane were expecting Milner to get it, they realised they had been caught offside and were waiting for the ball to go out of play

A combination of a really silly offside law and Milner's quick thinking did for us on this one, and it was very unlucky - as i said on a previous post, 99% of players wouldn't have been bothered chasing that one down (or even noticed the opportunity), but that is what Milner brings to the table
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby Aztec Hammer on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:33 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:One game in and we already have the multitude of posts moaning about refereeing decisions/ Sky conspiracy/ poor little old West Ham blah blah!

We lost because we were pony

VAR will be in place next season. The other 4 big leagues are using it this year, so no reason to suggest we won't have it

However, VAR wouldn't help with goal 2 as that it still down to interpretation of the law. The changes in offside laws are stupid IMHO (and make it almost impossible to defend in certain situations) but they are what they are


Of course we lost because we were pony but it does make me laugh how often you have posted on here about us being complainers when it comes to bias.

The third goal was miles offside, three of the ****ers standing on the other side of the last defender, including the bloke who kicked it in the goal. Away game at Anfield. Are you surprised by this? I suppose you think we would've been given the same ridiculous call if was the reverse fixture?
Last edited by Aztec Hammer on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby James P on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:33 pm

What the players need to do is head back towards the goal and the "offside" attackers once the cross has come in from the left.

Once the winger has crossed it that "offside trap" has either been successful or it hasn't. Our defenders just stand stock still seemingly praying "please give offside! please give offside!" Once the cross is delivered the lino will either give it or he won't and you need to be on your toes in case he, correctly, doesn't give it.

Basically offside traps are folly and belong back in the 80s.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby Crouchend_Hammer on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:39 pm

James P wrote:What the players need to do is head back towards the goal and the "offside" attackers once the cross has come in from the left.

Once the winger has crossed it that "offside trap" has either been successful or it hasn't. Our defenders just stand stock still seemingly praying "please give offside! please give offside!" Once the cross is delivered the lino will either give it or he won't and you need to be on your toes in case he, correctly, doesn't give it.

Basically offside traps are folly and belong back in the 80s.


Whilst I agree with this to a certain extent (and our defence were caught flat footed), the unusual circumstances i.e. Milner arriving very very late to a ball that nearly everyone thought was going out (even their strikers), and the speed of the delivery, means I am not surprised our defenders assumed the danger had passed and they had done what they were supposed to do (and, done it successfully)

Having played CB for many years, if your primary objective is playing an offside trap, it is very difficult to then quickly switch back on and head back towards your goal, as the instinct is to hold the line

I do agree that playing an offside trap, (especially so close to your own goal) is fraught with danger in the modern game
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby Crouchend_Hammer on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:45 pm

Aztec Hammer wrote:
Of course we lost because we were pony but it does make me laugh how often you have posted on here about us being complainers when it comes to bias.

The third goal was miles offside, three of the ****ers standing on the other side of the last defender, including the bloke who kicked it in the goal. Away game at Anfield. Are you surprised by this? I suppose you think we would've been given the same ridiculous call if was the reverse fixture?


Of course it was offside. A long way off. However, are we going to have every match thread this season filled up with posts bemoaning refereeing decisions, as is usually the case?

Liverpool have been getting dodgy decisions in their favour at home since the days of Shankly - they probably won half their titles in the 70s and 80s on the basis of iffy penalties given in front of the Kop.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby James P on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:54 pm

Aztec Hammer wrote:Of course we lost because we were pony but it does make me laugh how often you have posted on here about us being complainers when it comes to bias.

The third goal was miles offside, three of the ****ers standing on the other side of the last defender, including the bloke who kicked it in the goal. Away game at Anfield. Are you surprised by this? I suppose you think we would've been given the same ridiculous call if was the reverse fixture?


The third goal is clearly offside. No one is saying otherwise. But we've also had complaints about fixture list bias, offside for both the first two goals (they weren't) and a complaint that the whistle wasn't blown dead on 46 minutes at the end of the first half (which it isn't supposed to be).

If you moan about everything, even when the decisions are correct, your legitimate complaints are going to get drowned out.
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Re: Liverpool v West Ham Utd: match thread (12/8/18)

Postby DDHammer on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:58 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:However, are we going to have every match thread this season filled up with posts bemoaning refereeing decisions, as is usually the case?


Why wouldn't we :?

Whether we were pony or not, at 2-0 the chance of a comeback is still there, we nick a goal and the dynamic changes, 3-0 game over.
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