West Ham Utd 1-2 Bournemouth (18/08/18)

[Awooga_Iron]

I’d say that’d need to be a 4222.... Worried about the 2 dropping back to cover the FB.

It was a 4222 before I edited! Wilshere is obviously driving from a midfield 3.

[SiO]

If we are playing 4231 we have to make up our minds whether it is a compact, defensive, counter attacking one or a high line, high tempo pressing version.

One of the big problems at Anfield was that we did neither.

It was a confused and incoherent effort by our team. They didn't seem to know what they were supposed to do, or alternatively, some simply weren't up to it.

Bournemouth are an okay PL team and are a good yardstick for where we will probably be. A closely fought contest would be the norm and an indicator of another season in midtable nowheresville.

The boss seems to suggest that he wants a dominating game plan rather than a counterattacking scenario . We’ll see after Saturday as if he can’t attack at home to a non top10, when can you? Notwithstanding the team still needs to gel... in a year, it’ll be different still in terms of capability

[Cuenca 'ammer]

No way we dominate unless we decide as bubbs says, to have some kind of a game plan.

We pressed with one or two players and they played around us. We sat off they played through us. We did a bit of both and they played wide of us..

We need to decide what we can do, not what we want to. Either Pinky or bubbs said earlier and it is a given in coaching.....you design a formation/tactics whatever you want to call it based on the players that you have. Not vice versa. We have for way too long, tried to fit square pegs into round holes and it just doesn't work.

We cannot press with a team that hasn't got pace, because from how I see it, you press, win the ball back quickly and then counter. Barca press and then play the ball around for half an hour or so, KNOWING that they have/had players who could unlock defences. We currently don't have enough players with pace to counter effectively OR players with enough smarts and pace to press as a group. You cannot press with one or two players. Watch Arnie press then get pissed off because no one else goes with him.

MP better come up with a CLEAR game plan that gets the best out of the players we have right now. Not with players who he thinks he has or players that he wishes he had.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

We need to decide what we can do, not what we want to. Either Pinky or bubbs said earlier and it is a given in coaching.....you design a formation/tactics whatever you want to call it based on the players that you have. Not vice versa. We have for way too long, tried to fit square pegs into round holes and it just doesn't work.

had.

It isn't a given in coaching at all, certainly not at the elite level. If you are only interested in short term results then yes, adapting tactics/ formation to what is immediately available is sensible. However, most coaches/ managers at the top level will (rightly or wrongly) be looking to implement their philosophy in the long term.

It may go horribly wrong for Pelligrini, but a man of his experience will know what he wants to do long term and will be looking to forge ahead with it

[Patito]

Bubbles - my personal opinion was that we were very compact, almost too compact as there seemed to be a bit of confusion on a few occasions (between the winger and fullback) as to who goes wide to shut down and stop the cross coming in. It happened a few times, particularly with Masuaku.

[Cuenca 'ammer]

Crouchy

hate to contradict you....if you don't have the players to play in a 4-3-3 then there is no way in hell you will be successful with it.

IF you are a national team manager you can decide on a system a la Ramsey or more recently Southgate and make it work.

You certainly cannot implement a system if the players you have don't fit into it. Why the heck do you think that Moyes went 3 at the back ? Because we didn't have the players to work a 4.

I suppose you can play any system whatsoever that you want if you don't care about being competitive. We could play a 2-4-4 if we wanted (or our manager did) there isn't any way it would work.

We could play a 6-4-0 and it work because some teams couldn't score enough against us. We would probably get points o nthe board through draws and the occasional win, but long term it would be sussed out.

Liverpool play their 4-3-3 because they have the players to suit it, and where it was lacking, Klopp went out and bought enough players to make it work.

Conversely Mourinho can't seem to settle on whatever system he wants to get the best out of his players. Nor could Wenger...he couldn't keep a clean (enough) sheet at the end to win enough games. And his players (from what we are lead to believe) lost faith in that system and his coaching.

Therein is the rub. If the players don't buy into it, you're on a loser from day one. They are also smart enough (at least football wise) to know whether it will work with who they have on the team with them.

Do you honestly think we could press all over the field with Chicharito, Noble, Wilshere and Rice on the field together ? Didn't work last week with Chicharito not there.

[the pink palermo]

Bubbles - my personal opinion was that we were very compact, almost too compact as there seemed to be a bit of confusion on a few occasions (between the winger and fullback) as to who goes wide to shut down and stop the cross coming in. It happened a few times, particularly with Masuaku.

My observation too.

Arthur was so far out of position I assumed it was a deliberate tactic and he was acting on instructions.

Of course it may just be he was ****ing clueless.

[bubbles1966]

Typical of the huge spaces in midfield, it follows on from half a dozen players doing traffic cone impressions as Liverpool passed the ball through them with ease, time and again. This was the second minute.



The midfield really didn't have a clue what it was doing. It didn't sit deep, it didn't press, it didn't intercept, it didn't tackle.

[Cuenca 'ammer]

^^^^^^

sounds like a winning tactic bubbs !!!!!!

[Patito]

In that picture, I don’t think the back 4’s positioning is too bad, the midfield 3 clearly giving them little protection though.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

Cuenca - I am not talking about specifics of what Pelligrini is or isn't trying to do, or if he has any chance of being successful
.
I am merely refuting th claim that it is a given in coaching you will adapt your tactics to fit the players.

Obviously if I turned up to coach the a dog and duck I would have to, but plenty of managers and coaches at the top level mould/ build a team/ playing style to meet their philosophy. It might take a couple of years, it ,might not even work at all but plenty of managers will try it

[bubbles1966]

Surely the still above illustrates why the FBs have to come narrow against a narrow front three? If they don't, they leave a huge gaping hole between the CB and FB. Salah and Mane draw them in.

The problem is that Liverpool found it so easy to control the flow of the game and had the time and space to play these players in repeatedly. The flow into them had to be stopped,

[Cuenca 'ammer]

Hate to flog a deceased equine....


https://www.managingmadrid.com/2017/4/1 ... philosophy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Both coaches have the philosophy that it’s about selecting your 11 best players available and then building a system and a formation which can get the most from those players’ characteristics. We have certainly seen this philosophy imposed by Zidane, in particular, in his first full season in charge. In the first half of the season, with Madrid plagued by injuries, Zidane had to adapt. A trip to the Calderon ensued without Benzema, Sergio Ramos, Pepe, Casemiro, and Kroos. Five first team regulars out of the team. Instead of sticking to the default system of 4-3-3, Zidane tweaked his formation to 4-4-1-1 in order to give Isco total freedom as a pure #10 behind the striker. The system adapted to Isco’s characteristics, which in turn would provide Cristiano Ronaldo the service he demands as a pure #9. To further supplement Ronaldo’s new role, Bale and Lucas Vázquez were kept wide on the flanks, in order to utilize their speed and of note, kept on their strong foot flank (Bale on the Left, Vazquez on the Right) to capitalize on their crosses and Cristiano’s aerial ability. The team ran out 3-0 winners in the Madrid Derby and Madrid fans were left impressed with Zidane’s tactical impetus. The system was built to adapt to characteristics of his players and in particular to get the best out of a generational talent, Cristiano Ronaldo.

[prophet:marginal]

Its worth remembering that it's 'honours even' against this lot, so far in their Prem career, as a club

2 wins
2 draws
2 defeats

In the main, fairly high scoring, too.

They've got a better keeper than us, imo, and Ake is a solid defender.

I wouldn't be happy with a point, but I wouldn't be surprised, much, either.

[thejackhammer]

Bournemouth aren’t exactly blessed with central midfield pace. Noble and Wilshere will be enough to hold possession then punish them with the pace and width through our attack and width.

Fabianski - our best player on Saturday, he has the shirt for now he should keep it.

Fredericks - pace to help deal with Wilson, King, et al and a great outlet

Ogbonna and Balbuena

Masuaku - 100% tackle success rate, kept Salah mostly quiet, a great outlet down the left. Liverpool near exclusively attacked down the right where Antonio offered no protection for Fredericks.

Noble and Wilshere - Wilshere looked better deep, he and Noble will control the ball with their passing ability, both will remain mostly deep and compact helping the back two.

Yarmolenko - Antonio didn’t do enough to keep his place. Lost the ball constantly, gave Fredericks little support, and a pathetic 54% pass completion.

Snodgrass - deserves a start after his initial cameo. A great set piece on him and capable of releasing our attacking players his passing.

Anderson - fantastic on the ball, works hard to protect Masuaku, and will prove his worth in a game where we actually attack.

Arnautovic - no words are needed.

3-0 and the Pellegrini revolution begins.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

Cuenca - I will counter with bielsa and guardiola.

I am not saying it is a good idea. Merely pointing out managers do it

[hammer1975]

If Masuaku is going to play is it illegal to have an earpiece in so that someone can coach him through the game on his positioning (or lack of) and particularly to avoid him switching off?

It’s comfortably his biggest issue

[Cuenca 'ammer]

Cuenca - I will counter with bielsa and guardiola.

I am not saying it is a good idea. Merely pointing out managers do it

and Bielsa doesn't last long anywhere and Pep had half a billion pounds to work his "project."

And as I am always so happy to point out..

In the immortal words of "Bum" Phillips...

There are two kinds of managers - them as has been farhed and them as gonna be fahred....

[Ironing Board]

Crouchy

hate to contradict you....if you don't have the players to play in a 4-3-3 then there is no way in hell you will be successful with it.

IF you are a national team manager you can decide on a system a la Ramsey or more recently Southgate and make it work.

You certainly cannot implement a system if the players you have don't fit into it. Why the heck do you think that Moyes went 3 at the back ? Because we didn't have the players to work a 4.

I suppose you can play any system whatsoever that you want if you don't care about being competitive. We could play a 2-4-4 if we wanted (or our manager did) there isn't any way it would work.

We could play a 6-4-0 and it work because some teams couldn't score enough against us. We would probably get points o nthe board through draws and the occasional win, but long term it would be sussed out.

Liverpool play their 4-3-3 because they have the players to suit it, and where it was lacking, Klopp went out and bought enough players to make it work.

Conversely Mourinho can't seem to settle on whatever system he wants to get the best out of his players. Nor could Wenger...he couldn't keep a clean (enough) sheet at the end to win enough games. And his players (from what we are lead to believe) lost faith in that system and his coaching.

Therein is the rub. If the players don't buy into it, you're on a loser from day one. They are also smart enough (at least football wise) to know whether it will work with who they have on the team with them.

Do you honestly think we could press all over the field with Chicharito, Noble, Wilshere and Rice on the field together ? Didn't work last week with Chicharito not there.

Hernandez is quite lazy - cannot see him leading a press from the front like a young Messi.

With the players we have a compact counter system seems more sensible. On the other hand, what is the point in getting Pelligrini and playing like Moyes!

[Cuenca 'ammer]

I re-iterate..

If we are going to press from the front, Chicharito, won't be there. If we are going to press in the middle, Noble, Wilshere and Rice combined can't be there....

If we drop back like we did last week, there is another tonking on the horizon....

If we are to play with MP's favoured 4-2-2-2 we need two DM's to sit...we don't/maybe have ONE let alone TWO.

I still say our recruitment policy was flawed.

Out of balance.

2 RB's 3 CB's 1 LB - Fred, Zaba, Cresswell, Diop. Oggie and The General
1 DM (specialist it seems) plus Rice who is a CB/DM - Sanchez and Rice
3 CM's - Noble, Wilshere and Obiang
3 RW's (4 if we count Antonio) - Yarmolenko, Perez, Antonio and Snodders
2 LW's (3 if we include Antonio) - Anderson, Antonio and Masuaku
2 F's (3 if we count Perez) - Arnie, Perez and Chicharito

no creative AM now that Lanzini is injured but he spent most of his time on the left.

Who have I left out ????