Patito wrote:
He’s been subbed in 3 of his last 5 appearances. Not sure what that’s got to do with this thread mind.
It should have been 4 out of 5.
And it's relevant because what this thread is really about is the balance of the team, sadly the only player who is consistently and persistently slated is our skipper.
Against Cardiff the Manager selected Hernandez, Lanzini and Anderson to start against a side that would be all hustle and bustle....he got the balance wrong.
Anderson did set up the winner against Huddersfield, but again they sat back and let us attack them, this meant we could abandon our defence somewhat and have Nasri, Anderson, Lanzini, Perez, and Hernandez all on.
the pink palermo wrote:
It should have been 4 out of 5.
Would you have subbed him off last match, pinky? He set up the winner! No one played particularly well for us over the first 70 mins but we needed our best attacking players on the pitch to open up Huddersfield hence why (I'm guessing) Anderson stayed.
Clearly though, Pellegrini isn't averse to subbing Anderson if he feel he needs to as evidenced by him doing so in 3 of the 4 previous matches.
the pink palermo wrote:
And it's relevant because what this thread is really about is the balance of the team, sadly the only player who is consistently and persistently slated is our skipper.
I disagree. I do feel a lot of the criticism aimed at Noble is over the top and have defended him plenty on here but I think every single player has been singled out for criticism. Including Anderson, his thread is evidence of that....
the pink palermo wrote:
Against Cardiff the Manager selected Hernandez, Lanzini and Anderson to start against a side that would be all hustle and bustle....he got the balance wrong.
He did indeed, perhaps Arnautovic/Antonio should have been in there. However, Arnie was woeful last match and Antonio, for all his running and endeavour, gives the ball away far too easily and really lacks end product unless he's heading the ball.
Noble's sub was more tactical, than him playing badly. He was sacrificed so Pellegrini could put on a more attack minded side which ultimately worked. He was never going to take off a specialist Rice (who's had much better games) and the team had their tails up attacking at will once the extra attacking bodies were made.
Some fans just like to jump on his every move and make more of a substitution than is necessary because they just don't like how he plays. He'll still be starting the next one, like he normally does most games. That doesn't happen if he was seen as such an issue in the side.
I was actually surprised he took Nobes off for Nasri as I thought Noble was the one bit of bite we had and at the score still only 1-2, it wasn’t inconceivable we would get back in it. Noble was closing down and putting a challenge in and generally thought his overall game wasn’t as bad as Andersons was on Saturday - Anderson was off the pace, his passing was poor and i thought it would be him he took off...although Anderson is the player who may well produce that one ball which ultimately wins the game.
As many have said...if it wasn’t Huddersfield I don’t it would have been Noble who came off as we would have just been too exposed in midfield with just Rice.
I think that Anderson was the worst player for the first 70 mins of the match and was the one I would have taken off, but I am not an experienced manager like pelle who ultimately got it right.
next season nobes should not start games but will be a very useful sub to bring on. we need a younger more athletic type DM alongside rice to screen the back four . rice cannot do it all on his own especially when the whole team plays badly.
players like noble, Snodgrass, should be subs not starters next season.
the pink palermo wrote:What does Anderson have to do to get subbed during a game ? Sit down ?
Asking for a friend.
Anderson was really poor for an hour or so, but I guess the argument is that he wins/turns matches. That's something like 13 goals/assists this year.
Pellegrini made it clear that he felt the ball wasn't being worked into the forwards in a way that was to his liking.
On rewatch, I felt we played reasonably well going forward - incl. Lanzini and Arnie- between the 5th minute and their second goal. It then went completely pear shaped until the last 15-20 minutes. The team was spooked. Ponderous in possession, not moving the ball with any great intelligence or verve. The final ball deserted us. We were awful defensively all day long.
In terms of Noble and Anderson, I guess the point is that you don't get hooked quite so regularly if you are considered vital to the team. Rice has become the irreplaceable one in midfield.
I mentioned this in another thread - Huddersfield have been on course to be the worst attack that has ever played in the Premier League. We gave up three against them on Saturday having been trounced by Cardiff a week earlier. Fulham could have been three up inside 5 minutes. These are championship teams.
If Pellegrini wants four attackers on the pitch, he has to get someone new in to partner Rice or we'll leak like a sieve.
bubbles1966 wrote:
If Pellegrini wants four attackers on the pitch, he has to get someone new in to partner Rice or we'll leak like a sieve.
yep. Noble can play if we have Rice and one other from Obiang, Sanchez, Snodgrass alongside him
Rice and Noble [without one of the other three] should not be an option
However, it has to be said that all three goals were simply awful defending which could have been prevented with better individual play, or organisation from set-pieces. it doesn't matter how well your midfield functions if you leave players completely free from set-pieces or your CBs dive in and let CFs waltz past you
for most of the match Huddersfield outplayed us in midfield. we couldn't get near them as rice was on his own. This then makes the defence come under too much pressure and whilst I accept our defenders made mistakes too much is allowed to come onto to them as our midfield is too slow or weak.
hammerman11 wrote:for most of the match Huddersfield outplayed us in midfield. we couldn't get near them as rice was on his own. This then makes the defence come under too much pressure and whilst I accept our defenders made mistakes too much is allowed to come onto to them as our midfield is too slow or weak.
One goal was a corner, one was a freekick, one was their new striker, thus not part of the leagues worse attack, finding his way from deep past both centre backs.
All Noble is is an easy target. People see we've conceded a few goals, blame the midfield, it's what we've been doing for years.
thejackhammer wrote:
One goal was a corner, one was a freekick, one was their new striker, thus not part of the leagues worse attack, finding his way from deep past both centre backs.
All Noble is is an easy target. People see we've conceded a few goals, blame the midfield, it's what we've been doing for years.
I don't get it either, but he has always been the easy target for most of our defensive deficiencies. The problem we concede so much, for years, predominantly lies on the fact our defence hasn't been good enough. Now that's not to excuse Noble entirely of blame when he does f*** up in midfield but not to the extent some fans would like to believe. Your point about the set pieces is a case in point.
I reckon the debate will continue on next season when Pellegrinis still selecting him as a starter just like he's done since he's been manager.
thejackhammer wrote:
One goal was a corner, one was a freekick, one was their new striker, thus not part of the leagues worse attack, finding his way from deep past both centre backs.
All Noble is is an easy target. People see we've conceded a few goals, blame the midfield, it's what we've been doing for years.
Probably because the lack of midfield bite has been to blame!
Even in 2015/16 we conceded loads of goals!
Noble has a place in our team if we have two midfielders alongside him, but he is just not combative enough, physical enough, powerful enough, athletic enough, quick enough or tall enough to play in a midfield two in the modern premier league
Rice and Noble vs Doucore and Capoue is a prime example of the mismatch
I am not that bothered if we do play an attacking formation and do concede loads of goals, but it is still important to recognise the reason why we can often be over-run in midfield
Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Noble has a place in our team if we have two midfielders alongside him, but he is just not combative enough, physical enough, powerful enough, athletic enough, quick enough or tall enough to play in a midfield two in the modern premier league
Rice and Noble vs Doucore and Capoue is a prime example of the mismatch
I am not that bothered if we do play an attacking formation and do concede loads of goals, but it is still important to recognise the reason why we can often be over-run in midfield
This is the crux of it really. Noble's best performances recently have been when he's had both Rice + Obiang/Snodgrass in the middle with him.
Colours never run wrote:
I reckon the debate will continue on next season when Pellegrinis still selecting him as a starter just like he's done since he's been manager.
I’d imagine Pellegrini brought in Sanchez and Wilshere for a reason, and had they both been fit, the 23 games Noble has started this season would most probably be at least halved. IMO the 2 fullback, CM and striker positions are what we should be aiming to improve on in the summer. Watford have Dacoure and Capoue. Wolves have Navas and Mouhtinho as well as Dendoncker, swap any one of those 5 with Noble and we comfortably finish 7th this season.
Our entire outfield 10 was awful after their first went in until Chicha and Nasri came on. Pellers could have subbed anyone and been correct. I really thought he would hook Rice as he was the least effective of the midfield, but as I say anyone could have gone and the result makes the boss right in what he did to effect the way the game had gone up to then.
I think Noble's place will be somewhat more protected now Lanzini is there. He does not play as a number 10, I would say he's more part of a midfield three than part of the three behind a striker, which heatmaps seem to prove. It would generally show Lanzini being more forward thinking, but not hugely, whilst it is clear that Nobes plays the right of it and Lanzini the left.
I think it's been evident that Noble is popping up further forward on that right side more often since Lanzini returned. I think the balance could be restored by Nasri or Snodgrass.
I'd plump for Nasri being too smart for Digne, and because he will be better with the ball and better moving for the ball in a way that won't put as much emphasis on Mark getting forward. Hard call though as Snoddy will work harder and will also give set piece delivery, something Everton are still seen as weak at and something we are seen as good at (attacking, we are horrible at defending them).
For what it's worth, I think Mark has been important in the last two games as one of the only ones in our squad who can handle gritty players and people trying to get into them. Harry Arter got no change out of Mark really, but I don't think some of the others liked it. Last two games, a lot of players have seemed intimidated by harder working players, I don't think I'd have called for Obiang in that situation. He's always ponderous on the ball
