Grant and the Yom Kippur absence [POLL]

[Turns to Stone]

The English players have to play on Boxing Day and i did not see any of the muslim players in the premier league ask for time off at Ramadan. Pulis came at half time after his mother's death. Grant does not give a sh*t if we win or loose. :raver:

By that logic, would you also say that Pulis didn't give a **** about his late mother? Or would you admit that it's not as simple as that and sometimes in life it isn't possible to put everything in a little box and judge it against other slightly different scenarios!

I don't see why everything on this site has to be black or white, there are grey areas sometimes, folks! The way I see it, Gold and Sullivan would not be granting him the day off if they didn't think it was something that mattered greatly to him. They're his employers and it's there opinions that count as they have access to much more information on the topic than we do.

The other examples you gave aren't the same at all , Ramadan is an entirely different religiuous day to Yom Kippur, and as has been discussed on many occasions before, grieving processes are different to everyone.

[bubbles1966]

The bloke has done nothing so far to make me think that we will miss his presence.

:lol:

Been waiting for someone to say that. 4 games, 4 losses, 12 conceded......when he is there......

As I said on page 1 - if we pick up at least a point without him, there will be those calling for his head "because we're better without him"

[SL]

You are confusing your respect for religious beliefs and having respect for other peoples religious beliefs. Totally different things.

Its you who has inserted the words MUST and FORCE into this discussion, nobody else is saying that.

Im not confusing anything.

Im simply suggesting that it is not in fact "only right" that we respect someones belief. We can each individually choose whether or not we respect someones beliefs.

[Hambrosia Stu]

As for commitment, many would say the AFCON is two bob tournament so I don’t see much difference to players wanting to go and play in that…

If a manager or player missed a game due to his wife giving birth…. No one would care and I would think it is right, putting birth of your child ahead of your job – Problem is taking it off for an adult fairy tale is slightly different!!!

I would agree with most of what you say in both those sentances.
But it's not what I think that matters

I agree that the AFCON is a 2 bob tournament. But those players who go to it, to represent their countries with pride, probably see it a bit different. It is their opinion that matters, not mine

I agree that most religion can be described as an adult fairy tale. But those people who are devout Jews, Hindus, Catholics, probably see it a bit different. It is their opinion that matters, in terms of how they view their faith, not mine

What I feel about Avram Grant's religion is utterly irrelevant to how justified he is in asking to be absent on YK. It is how he feels about his faith that matters. If his faith is such a big thing in his life he feels justified in asking to be absent, it is irrelevant how I (or any other Hammer) feel about that faith.

[solar hammer]

As for those who fail to see that a "religious man" might cop off with a prossie, well he's religious...he's not f*$ing Jesus!!

I should hope not.Mary Magdalene would be furious.

[Israeli_Hammer]

I can't recall such debates when Zola took a week off in a very crucial point of last season, when relegation seemed like a very realistic possibility, in order to 'think'.

[Cuenca 'ammer]

I think this should be moved to the Snug where everyone knows you can have a sensible debate on religion.

:lol:

[Believer]

I can't recall such debates when Zola took a week off in a very crucial point of last season, when relegation seemed like a very realistic possibility, in order to 'think'.

Hopefully this weekends time off will result in the same outcome - ie we do what is necessary regardless...

[Sloop John B]

We can each individually choose whether or not we respect someones beliefs.

You are completely right... people have a right to be racist and bigoted if they chose.

[BishopsPassage]

mmmmmmm kippers

[SL]

We can each individually choose whether or not we respect someones beliefs.

You are completely right... people have a right to be racist and bigoted if they chose.

So if someone doesnt respect someone elses belief that makes them racist and bigoted?

Please tell me that you're on some weird kind of wind up

[smuts]

Don't mind to be honest..........if he has practised his religion for so long, the club know this then that's his choice.

If he became a Jedi Knight last year and wanted to take the weekend off to swish his plastic lightsaber..........then that's different.

However...if we lose........people will blame it on his absence and if we win some people will say it's because he wasn't there. He can't win as the witch hunt has started already............4 bloody games in.

[prophet:marginal]

I can't recall such debates when Zola took a week off in a very crucial point of last season, when relegation seemed like a very realistic possibility, in order to 'think'.

I've expressed my opinion about the situation already, but Zola didn't miss a match, did he?

[Northants_Iron]

You can respect someone's beliefs (ie acknowledge them) without agreeing to them. In this instance a Jewish manager is asking for the day of on the holiest, most important day of his religious year. We knew he was Jewish when we hired him, it was hardly some great secret.

The issue then becomes between a man's job and his faith- seeing as he is religious is it any surprise that this has taken precedence, on what (I say again) is one of the most holy day of the Jewish calendar?

[Sloop John B]

So if someone doesnt respect someone elses belief that makes them racist and bigoted?

Please tell me that you're on some weird kind of wind up

Bigotry is the intollerance or lack of respect for other peoples beliefs yes.

You suggested that people don't have to respect other religions and cultures I agreed and pointed out that racism and bigotry can exist because of the very freedom of speech/thought issue you are raising in your argument.

[Hammer32]

Hilarious,

I can understand why some people are saying he should be at the game, but I'm actually seeing poeple say he should be sacked for asking not to work.

Let's turn this around shall we, you start a new job, and your employers say to you "Do you have any holiday you need to take?".

He says, actually chaps I'm Jewish and there is one day a year that I can't leave my house and I have to fast due to a 2000 year tradition that my parents taught me to believe and that I hold very dear. The bosses, say, no sweat, it's only a day..relax man etc

3 months later, a message board collapses, seriously folks...I've missed plenty of West Ham games for much shitter reasons than my faith. Yes, he gets paid for the privilege, but the point is that he has asked his employers for a day off to observe Yom Kippur. They granted it, I appreciate that this gives some of the less sophisticated amongst us to start abusing a man just because he chooses to believe somethig that they don't. I mean seriously, people. It's 2010, and it's a football match. He's not dodging the draft or something.

As for those who fail to see that a "religious man" might cop off with a prossie, well he's religious...he's not f*$ing Jesus!!

Good points, although copping of with a prossie is rather a large fall from grace, but who am I to judge on sin.

If he asked before he signed, I have no problem, I was not really expecting many points at this stage and 1 win will make a big difference.

JUST GET BEHIND THE TEAM.

[SL]

So if someone doesnt respect someone elses belief that makes them racist and bigoted?

Please tell me that you're on some weird kind of wind up

Bigotry is the intollerance or lack of respect for other peoples beliefs yes.

You suggested that people don't have to respect other religions and cultures I agreed and pointed out that racism and bigotry can exist because of the very freedom of speech/thought issue you are raising in your argument.

If not being tollerant and respectful of the beliefs of kiddy fiddlers, rapists, murderers (and the like) makes me a bigot then im extremely proud to be known as a bigot.

Hopefully now you might understand the point that im making.

[Georgee Paris]

I didn't realize the Jews were that dodgy.

[QuintonNimoy]

You are completely right... people have a right to be racist and bigoted if they chose.

:lol: Go on, follow Godwin's law. We're definitely on the home stretch now.

[SL]

Go on, follow Godwin's law. We're definitely on the home stretch now.

:lol:

It cant be far away