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Good performance by Jack last night...perhaps his best for some time and what a cracking strike! We still haven't seen the best of him yet, but have always felt he would find his way back to some semblance of the potential within himself. I agree with some of the points on both sides of the argument; yes some of the excuses for him may be wearing a bit thin - he's needed more time than most to get over a number of major traumas to his life...the loss of Gary Speed, his manager at Wales being another more recent.
Giving this boy a break and an opportunity to find himself again - and I'm of the view Salladyce will know this - is going to pay dividends by giving him a run in the team; even if it means creating a position that utilises the best parts of his game. I think we started to see that last night.
Last edited by Gerblatz on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let's hope so..
On his second half performance yesterday, I think I would pen his name in the side for saturday, but the lad had better not think he is out of the woods yet
What woods ?
But how can the quality of the goal, or even just the fact that he scored a goal, be irrelevant? He scored the goal that won us the game, and it was a peach at that.
Put it this way, if either you or I played a Sunday league game over the marshes and played even at a pretty average level for the majority of the game, but also, at one point in the game, produced the winning goal, (whether it was from 25 yards or nutted over the line from a yard out), wouldn't you consider that a very good performance? I would. After all, the main aim of the game is to put the ball in the back of the net.
He may not have 'ran' the game, but he definitely decided it. That has to be a good thing. Not digging you out mate, honest, but do you see my point?
Bit harsh Bob. He seems to be the type of player who, for whatever reason, is behind on the learning curve. He could and should be pushing Nolan for that role. He certainly should be taking in everything that Nolan does as a player. We know he's not for the wings or a holding midfielder, but I've seen enough of him to think that he could be the right type of player to take the Nolan role. I think (like a few of the players we have) he needs a good run in the side, in the right position. Unfortunately in these times of "win at all cost" football, giving players a run to help them develop falls by the wayside.
I get it mate. Its an interesting point to discuss certainly. I mean, how much did Winston Reids goal contribute to your overrall rating of his performance yesterday?
Let me also say how happy I am we won yesterday and how glad I am that Jack scored a banger.
And I'll have you know I play a very good standard on Sundays by the way. Played against Julian Joachim in the Sunday fa cup last season.
I don't think it's too harsh really, he's done nothing in his career that suggests to me he could be a regular in any position in a Premier League team, and that's what we aspire to be.
& i don't understand how anyone can think he'll take the Nolan role neither, Collison will never get the goal return Nolan has done on a consistent basis season after season, never.
I said earlier that Nolan in a season where he's been heavily criticised, has scored more goals than Collison has in his 5 year and 78 game career so far.
Think we'll have to look elsewhere if we are to replace Nolan personally, that's if we do aspire to be a Premier League Club of course.
This is also my view. Hats off as I said last night, he played a blinder for the majority of the match and a quality finish.
You're stating a fact when there isn't a way to prove it. He has played pretty much out of position since when Zola was here Diamante/Jimenez had that role, and then got hurt for pretty much of 2 seasons.
Even when Nolan was playing not very well, he chipped in goals and everyone said "Yeah he's **** but scoring goals." But when Collison had a pretty good game AND scored an excellent goal, some on here are saying "Yeah well he didn't play that well, you can't just count goals." When Nolan for a good stretch was in the side for that very purpose.
Also Nolan is 29. And played with a lot better at the Barcodes than Collison has ever played with here for most of his career.
You're comparing manzanas y naranjas mi amigo......
There is a way to prove it Oust, no Manager we've had has played him there consistently, simples.
Do you think there's a reason for that ?
If he was that good in that position, do you not think at least one would have given him a run of games there ?
The only people that seem to think that this " Nolan position " is Collison's position, are people on this forum.
There's all the proof you need right there, plus the rest of what i say of course and by checking Nolan's goalscoring record that won't have in brackets ( but he was playing with Alan Smith, Peter Lovenkrands & Joey Barton at the time he scored so many goals in each season )..
Playing against Julian Joachim, that's quality!
To me, Winston Reid's goal doesn't contribute to his overall rating of his performance as much as Jackie's goal did, because as a defender, keeping the ball out of our own net is more integral to his performance than scoring is. Whereas with Jack, as a fairly advanced midfielder/being stuck out on the side, getting a goal can be a strong indicator of a good performance.
Mate, I know you're just as happy as I am that we won and Jack scored yesterday, we're all West Ham after all. It's nice to have our own opinions and discussions too. If everyone thought the same thing, the world would be a much duller place!
There is a way to prove it, just watch the match again. There was 5 or 6 times, of note, where he got himself in those "Nolan" areas. I'm not saying he's completely ready to take that role but he could develop into it with a decent run.
So you're basing this on last night ?
I'd rather look at the whole of the season personally to make a judgement on something so important, and over the course of the season he's been very out of sorts at best.
Or maybe he hasn't been out of sorts, maybe what we see most weeks actually is Jack Collison, and last night was just one of his good games that happen once or twice a season, that might be much more closer to the truth thinking about it.
Maybe he hasn't played well due to being played in positions not suited to him. Hasn't that been done enough with several players over the last few years? None of our complete strike force has had a decent run in the team, in a system that's beneficial to them and had any time to form decent partnerships. He needs to find his role and nail it down. Based on last nights game and the positions he got himself into it's no surprise that that was the best game he's had this season. It was no MOM performance but it can't be coincidence that it was in that role.
On Collison's goals record, I'd hazard a guess that if he was given the same freedom as Nolan, then he would score alot more than he currently does. I mean how many of Nolan's goals have come from less than 5 yards out maybe 4-5? Yes he is in the right place, but part of that is because of the freedom and role he plays for the team. Add in some of the sitters Nolan has missed this season, I'd say Collison would easily of doubled his own tally if allowed to play the same role as Nolan.
(I am not digging out Nolan just stating the obvious about his positional play and freedom on the pitch)
The four or five chances that fell at collisons feet would of been buried by nolan, until the last 5 minutes when nolan alt to of buried his head in the sand for the chance he missed. Jack has for the past few months missed chance after chance after chance and now he scores i hope there is more to come. It feels a bit like when spector scored 2 goals in a game and everyone forgot how totally **** he had been for 3 years solid.
Collison's great strike was the culmination of a dedicated display, which, to begin with, was wayward/blunt in delivery. He scored with his first decent shot on target.
Cole, by way of similar comparison, dithered for a split second to allow Morgan to - very accurately - dispossess him. A more confident player clean through as he was would have cracked a shot and made the keeper, not the last defender, earn his corn.
We saw flashes from these players through the game, but there seems to be a sense of doubt in both of their minds.
Nolan, however, is much more of a poacher than either of them. Appreciated, he fluffed his late chance, but he's more often than not
1. In the right place
2. Accurate, and
I suppose that's why we're created as a team around Nolan. It would be nice, as BSB suggests, if Jack could draw from the experience of training and playing alongside Nolan. Something in him suggests technique and footballing brain.
Just needs to finally step from the shadows with a run of games where he bags a few.
Maybe the play-offs?
I hate how these threads degrade into a nolan v collison debate. imo they have both done enough to justify their place in the first team. one has really stepped up in the last two months to actually add some tangible all round play as well as the goals and leadership that were previously there, the other has regularly played out of position for the good of the team and has had loads of decent performances - cardiff away, blackpool away, blackpool home, the spell against burnley, forest, derby and pompey in December. great goal last night but anyone who watches collison's play closely will notice the amount of off the ball work he does both defensively and going forward - if anything sometimes he's hampered by the other players not moving the ball quick enough into the space he's creating for himself
he has neither played in the same position nor the same number of minutes as nolan so any comparison of the two is nothing other than personal opinion....imo ....
we look a very balanced side imo with collison wide (covering across if need be but also with the crispness of passing to get forward and help create as well), o'neil in the middle (providing the energy that nolan and noble lack) and vaz te on the other flank (being all about attack and relying on the other midfielders covering across when he switches off defensively - enabled by collison on the other side tucking in).......we should be happy with this discovery as it's taken us most of the season to find it
we need to coax more consistency out of jack for sure (the ten minutes after he scored he seemed to be everywhere demanding the ball and his fans (me included) feel he can do more of that) - i can't help thinking that confidence is the key to bringing out that consistency and as a 21 year old - in footballing terms - we have time to be patient with him. hopefully he can learn some of the good habits from nolan
and comparisons with spector (!) ....please....spector has never hit the ball like that in his life!!!
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