Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby Logarithm on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:44 pm

Love the bit about Cole.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby Willtelll on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:46 pm

mywhufc wrote:Benetiz, Redknapp, perhaps,


Definitely not Benitez - he's far better than that Spanish waiter without a clue. Probably on a par with Redknapp but Redknapp gets better media coverage....
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby carnage on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:52 pm

Willtelll wrote:
Definitely not Benitez - he's far better than that Spanish waiter without a clue. Probably on a par with Redknapp but Redknapp gets better media coverage....


Is this the Benitez who got Valencia to 2 Champions League Finals, won the Champions League with a Liverpool team containing Traore and got Liverpool to another Champions league Final, beating some of the best teams in Europe along the way?
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby ironsonthebrain on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:10 pm

Logarithm wrote:Perhaps the 4th best manager in the league? After Ferguson, Wenger and Moyes.



Thanks mate, that's the best laugh I've had all day! :lol:
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby thejackhammer on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:29 pm

ironsonthebrain wrote:Thanks mate, that's the best laugh I've had all day! :lol:


Why? Do you think he should be higher?
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby btajim - mcfc on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:34 pm

Logarithm wrote:Perhaps the 4th best manager in the league? After Ferguson, Wenger and Moyes.


Do you not rate Mancini?
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby Turns to Stone on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:39 pm

btajim - mcfc wrote:Do you not rate Mancini?


What are your thoughts on Mancini, Jim? Obviously I've not seen Man City as much as you this, but last year I got the impression that it was individual performances from the likes of Kompany, Yaya and Aguero that dragged Man City to the title as opposed to excellent man-management?
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby bobcar on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:42 pm

btajim - mcfc wrote:
Do you not rate Mancini?


To be fair Mancini still has a lot to prove. Despite City being by far the best team in the first half of last season in the end you only just scraped it. This season you've been disappointing considering the players available and the amount spent.

I'd rather have BS here than Mancini without any doubt. Who would be better at City is very difficult to estimate because BS has never managed with those resources.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby Hockley Hammer on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:06 pm

Very difficult to compare managers who have only ever managed at clubs at a particular level against managers who have only ever been at a different level.

It is strange that Sam has never really 'failed' at a Premier League club but was never seen as a candidate for a host of opportunities which went to far lesser talented managers.

People like Mancini and Benitez are extremely lucky that their reputaion means that only the bigger clubs come looking for them and they can wait for the call.

That is why I am glad to see Sam trying to suceed his way but surprising a lot of people along the way. I have mates with season tickets at a variety of clubs and I have enjoyed getting compliments about my club this season, Makes a nice change from the last two PL seasons.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby claret parrot on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:25 pm

Logarithm wrote:Love the bit about Cole.


Yeah, me too, I really hope Carlton gets to read that. He's not the greatest of players but anyone who doesn't rate him obviously doesn't believe in - or just pays lip service to - our professed philosophy that if a player tries his best and gives his all for the shirt, then WHU fans will appreciate him.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby btajim - mcfc on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:23 pm

Turns to Stone wrote:What are your thoughts on Mancini, Jim? Obviously I've not seen Man City as much as you this, but last year I got the impression that it was individual performances from the likes of Kompany, Yaya and Aguero that dragged Man City to the title as opposed to excellent man-management?


Kompany, Yaya Toure and Aguero would walk in to any side in the world so their individual quality would always win games beyond a team without them in it. Yaya is in South Africa with Ivory Coast at the moment so he's a huge loss.

I still think Mancini's overrated. He's got the best opportunity in the world yet we're out of the Champions League without winning one match, out of the League Cup and too far behind in the Premiership. We've dropped too many points at home this season already. U****d threw the title away last season and surely won't do the same thing again this time round. They strengthened with the signing of Van Persie whilst we did not. Only Nastasic has been an improvement in defence and he seemed to be one for the future when he was brought in. Nobody else new has made an impact. With the man-management, I think he got the Tevez situation wrong (I've NEVER heard of another player behaving like he did in Munich), he should have sold Balotelli in the summer and he can't seem to make Dzeko work when he starts matches.

If U****d beat Liverpool on Sunday and we lose at Arsenal then we can kiss goodbye to the Premiership and I ultimately think this will cost him his job. Guardiola is available and will be attracted by the Barca Execs now working for City. I'd look at Klopp if Guardiola doesn't take the City job.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby sendô on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:37 pm

Liked the bit in the standard article about Cole wanting to stay and fight to get the team back up. "He was a beacon for me when others wanted to leave." I hope all the Carlton haters see that, he's worth so, so much more to this team than goals.

btajim - mcfc wrote:I still think Mancini's overrated.

I agree.

It's a bit glib to just say "anyone could win the league with Man City's team", but compare Mancini and City to Ferguson and Man Utd.

Fergie consistently gets Man Utd to perform at their very best, and not just with some of the best players like RVP, Rooney, Ronaldo, van nistelrooy et al, but with his squad topped up with average players like O'Shea, Wes Brown, Nicky Butt and, if we're being honest, Solkjaer.

Mancini on the other hand consistently struggles to get the best out of arguably the best squad in world football. Balotelli not performing? Well you've got Dzeko, Aguerro and Tevez who would walk into any attack in the country. Same story for every other position really.

City need to get rid if they want a shot a the rich teams of europe cup.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby Logarithm on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:04 pm

That said, it's nice to see they have given Mancini time.
He will get until the end of the season, I think.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby 1959 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:06 pm

I was starting to grudgingly appreciate him, but then the true measure of the bloke is in that Standard piece today where he lauds his manager at Preston for stitching up away teams. There's professionalism and there's gamesmanship. Maybe I'm looking for it too much and all he's doing is having a laddish chuckle, but I just don;t like his values.

Like his results though, so suppose that's alright....??
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby btajim - mcfc on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:28 pm

sendô wrote:I agree.

It's a bit glib to just say "anyone could win the league with Man City's team", but compare Mancini and City to Ferguson and Man Utd.

Fergie consistently gets Man Utd to perform at their very best, and not just with some of the best players like RVP, Rooney, Ronaldo, van nistelrooy et al, but with his squad topped up with average players like O'Shea, Wes Brown, Nicky Butt and, if we're being honest, Solkjaer.

Mancini on the other hand consistently struggles to get the best out of arguably the best squad in world football. Balotelli not performing? Well you've got Dzeko, Aguerro and Tevez who would walk into any attack in the country. Same story for every other position really.

City need to get rid if they want a shot a the rich teams of europe cup.


You'd be surprised how many Blues would verbally (and physically) batter me to death for daring to criticise their beloved Bobby Manc. His record at Inter Milan his highly flattering considering the circumstances which led to them "winning" the first Serie A title under his control and then retaining it. I researched him as soon as he got the job and his poor record in Europe stood out immediately. He's done nothing with us in Europe to make me think he can turn it around, either. I know it sounds a bit excessive considering how new the project is - but not qualifying from the group for 2 seasons solid despite having the best squad in the competition simply isn't good enough.

Jurgen Klopp at Dortmund is the future in football. His Borussia Dortmund team that came to City were one of the best visiting sides I've ever seen at The Etihad and assembled at 10% of the cost of ours. Their support was pretty good too.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby ironilunga on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:37 am

sendô wrote:Fergie consistently gets Man Utd to perform at their very best, and not just with some of the best players like RVP, Rooney, Ronaldo, van nistelrooy et al, but with his squad topped up with average players like O'Shea, Wes Brown, Nicky Butt and, if we're being honest, Solkjaer.


I really do think that a squad needs the balance of 'average' players within it. Of course in truth they not average at all but just not super stars. I acutally think we are following this template at present with how our squad is shaping up. We have an upper tier of players such as Reid, Noble, Diame and Nolan and squad players such as Taylor and O.neil that are interchanged to play with them.

For me a squad full of 'super stars' does not work. There have to be players at a club that are not going to throw the toys out at starting on the bench and hence probably recognise West Ham as being the peak club for them.

QPR is an obvious example of the polar opposite to this.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby m-h on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:15 am

Honest question, where is the bar set ?.

Championship promotion = Love ? (short memories from a lot on here as to how we performed in the regular season with the most expensive and seasoned team in the championship) Ditched the cups.

Money League survival = Love ?. So far the board have backed his transfer targets (excluding Cole ?).
In other words this is Allardyce's team. Expectation was to stay in the league, he's been given and funded a squad to do that, no reason for love there then.

The geezers at the best gig he could ever have hoped for, coming off sacking from Newcastle
and Blackburn. Good manager, may be, in the higher echelons of West Ham managers of the past, long ways to go to achieve that.


So no.

Pressure Mr Allardyce, isn't what you've done, its what your going to do and what we're going to "win". Best pressure in the world. You have been given the ultimate chance at the best club to achieve that, deplete, punish, destroy, add a trophy or two and you might actually get there.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:57 am

claret parrot wrote:I might not love you Sam but you have my respect, my trust and my affection.


I've thought for a while that this thread had the wrong title. I've long been an admirer of Sam and since he came here have often defended him when there was far more opposition to him than we see now. But love? The three words that Claret Parrot uses for Allardyce are exactly right- respect, trust and affection. I'd just add one word to that short list- appreciation. So for me the title should read something like 'Sam- are you glad he's our manager yet?'.

By the way that article was interesting, particularly on the importance of team spirit. And the stuff on Carlton was a lovely read. I am probably reading too much into it but the list of our central midfielders doesn't mention Diame. Maybe that was because he's not currently available- I hope that's the only reason. Finally his mention of Van Persies's goal and the Mick McCarthy quotes show that he is still susceptible when it comes to criticism of him and his teams style. He talks about a 'long ball', then corrects it to 'pass' to make a mostly valid point. So even now, this stuff seems to hit a raw nerve and he feels the need to defend this style of play. His need for these remarks may tell of someone who at times has felt a bit bruised and a bit unappreciated within the footballing world. They certainly aren't the remarks of a genuinely arrogant man- I can't imagine a Mourinho feeling the need to justify himself to a newspaper's readers.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby m-h on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:08 am

/\

What has he "won" in his managerial career. Honest question.

Like i say, he's in a perfect situation right now,. The question will come down to the ambition of the club,
manager and team.Hopefully they're all on the same page.
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Re: Big Sam. Do you love him yet?

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:00 am

miami-hammer wrote:/\

What has he "won" in his managerial career. Honest question.

Like i say, he's in a perfect situation right now,. The question will come down to the ambition of the club,
manager and team.Hopefully they're all on the same page.


He's not won titles or cups. But does that really say everything to you about him as a manager?

Did you really expect him to win stuff at Bolton? For a club of their size what he did was on a par with winning trophies. He got them European football and completely safe as an established top league side. They'd love that now- but there's no chance of it unless another Allardyce comes along. Do you think Blackburn should have been winning cups over the likes of Chelsea and the Mancs? No, so what opportunity did he really have to win the trophies that would possibly 'prove' something to you? Again, Blackburn would kill to be in the same position now that Allardyce left them. Should he have won anything in his six months at Newcastle? That would have taken some doing at one of the least patient, most knee jerk clubs this impatient, knee-jerk country has to offer.

This is what he does. He gets teams and gets them performing above their level. There was a great statistical anlysis on here a while back that showed his teams on average finish four places higher than they should expect to. That's amazing. It means for example that were he at Reading or QPR they may not be marooned at the bottom as they are now. It means that statistically at least, it's extremely unlikely that you'll go down, and from what we've seen so far this season it looks like that will be the case again. That's a huge, big, massively gigantic thingummybob for us. I've seen us relegated so many times- we all have. But imagine how big we could grow if we remained in this league for years, continued building, re-developed UP or got the OS. Allardyce gives you the very best chance of allowing this to happen.

TTS mentioned that Allardyce runs this club without the interference from the Daves suffered by previous (and I use the next term loosely) managers. That's not because G+S have mellowed over the years or seen the error of their ways. It's because they see that our future in this league is more guaranteed under this manager than anyone else you could care to mention. So they may still yearn for the days when they told Zola about who they had just sold without his knowledge. Instead they have to bite their tongues and count to ten before they mouth off to the papers, because they do not want to jeopardise the tenure of the one, assertive, real manager that they have worked with at UP.

For the first time in many, many years I genuinely feel that really good times are coming to this club. But to get them we have to establish the three foundations. We need to get the debt down. We need to sort out the stadium one way or another. And we need to stay in this league. The third of those is the key though, because if we manage it then the first and second requirements will also be resolved.

So don't love him, but please, just appreciate him and what he's doing for us. And one day at Wembley under him or a successor, when Winston's holding the FA Cup aloft try to recall the days prior to his arrival when we were a complete mess of a club with no hope of staying in the league let alone winning anything.
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