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It's all relative. Of course I'd prefer decent football. But I'd also prefer to be in the PL than a lower division.
Why do alarm bells ring when you hear Carroll over Cole? Is Cole a player of the finest football we've seen? Does he epitomise the passing game? No, he's the big fella up front.
You seem against a new investor. What if this new investor turned us into a footballing masterclass? Man City play some pretty good football..........
As for your example of success, Martinez, I'd point out that Wigan finished 10th (51pts), 17th (38pts), 14th (40pts) and 11th (45pts) before he came in. That's an average of 13th and 43.5pts. Since he came in they've been 16th (36pts), 16th (42pts) and 15th (43pts). That's an average of 16th and 40.3pts. So they're worse since he took over. And they mostly play terrible football.
I was of course brainwashed into thinking that was what I was watching. but surely what you've been told about the history and culture of the club is what makes you a supporter rather than how well the team is doing on the pitch - at least that's what I was made to believe in (and it does seem like a long time ago)
Last edited by King Guy on Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wigan aren't that much better a footballing side than Stoke are! If Roberto Martinez was from Rotherham, wore a sh1t baseball cap and used the odd long-throw, would the actual football on show really be that different?
West Ham have never been all the things we dream they once were, in the same way that TV was never really any better than it is now, Music wasn't that much better than it is now, parents weren't better, dogs weren't smaller yada yada
We choose to view things a certain way, but if the Internet had been available in 1965, 1975, 1985 - the same conversations that we have every day would have actually been ongoing.
Lot of assumption there, that we play like Stoke. We don't.
That we'll go on to be Stoke.
I don't understand the Carroll/Cole thing, when all we're doing is simply vastly improving one of our current players with a similar, but better, player. It's a non-issue, let alone 'alarm bells'.
What's your feelings about us, that after we had set in stone an ethic of not losing, changing the defeatist mentality at the club and building a nice core to the side, we managed to get things right and started playing some of the best football in the league in the lsat quarter of the season?
Shouldn't that be where we stand now?
Of course, it'll have to get ugly again. At times, it'll be awful to watch in the Premier League again, but don't you dare tell me for one moment, that you won't be delighted seeing us scrap a 1-1 draw at Anfield, or take a last minute win at the Emirates with an effort off Vaz Te's cock, after being under the cosh for 90 mins.
I see last season - as I've been saying for donkeys - as the blueprint for West Ham United for the next 2-3 years.
Doing what has to be done, is never pretty.
Once accomplished, you earn the right to do what you want to do.
Without regurgitating essays I've written before, for any of the mythical "West Ham way" to be realised and succeed in the 21st century, the club has to be in the Premiership. That being the case, when we are outside of the top flight, promotion is the be all and end all. I would also say that due to the difficulty promoted clubs have in retaining their top flight status, the same goes for this season.
Long-term, of course we would rather see more aesthetically pleasing football, we'd love to have good, youth team products in the team (providing they are good enough) and play the game "the right way". It's a lot, lot easier said than done though.
Success equates with survival this season - a point of some significance given what I perceive to be a relatively strong Prem this coming season.
Survival delivered by Sam, will be delivered on his 'percentage' methods. I am not expecting stylishly open play. But I am giving him fair odds that we won't go down.
I guess I'm being unrealistic. You're right about the winning mentality - we were in a complete state a year ago and I suppose the rate we were leaking goals did benefit from a conservative approach. Yes, we played good football at the end of the season - but you can't deny there were periods for the first 3/4 of the season that we were coming up against poor opposition who we shouldn't have been afraid of playing passing football against, but instead looked devoid of ideas and ended up lumping it forward at every opportunity. it definitely felt like stoke at points (albeit without the thuggery)
I don't think 'it'll have to get ugly again' necessarily (I think you can be successful playing stylish football, even without huge amounts of quality - I think we have more than enough)... I really hope that once Allardyce does what he thinks he has to do in keeping us up by getting us to play more defensively, that he will 'want' to play on-the-floor football... but i'm not convinced.
-Cole is a technically gifted player with the ball at his feet, we've seen what he's capable of and I rate him as technically better than Carroll. (of course i'm not deluded into thinking he's better than Carroll overall).
-I stand by saying Wigan have played more impressively under Martinez - not necessarily getting the results due to constantly selling their decent players (also I don't think anyone can deny the PL has become a more competitive place since he took over).
-I'm all for a new investor but at the same time don't want to lose 'who we are' as Man City (and Chelsea) have so excellently demonstrated recently.
Maybe I am just seeing the past (and what i've been taught this club is about) with claret tinted specs, but I think that now more than ever we are at risk of losing that identity.
Last edited by King Guy on Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Well Said RARS and TTS
I've supported this club for 47 years. You can name the truly great seasons on one hand and the truly awful on another. The rest are inbetween.
I liked a lot of what I saw last year. Organisation, leadership and team spirit. By the end of the sesaon I went to every game expecting that we would not get beat and that we had the players to win the game.
I won't pretend it was always fantastic, but being disappointed after a 1-1 home draw when we outplayed the opposition is not the same as mulling over another bad defeat following a gutless performance. of which there have been too many to remember over the years.
We bounced back after defeats last season, something you have to do - another good sign.
To be perfectly fair - and I know I keep harping on about this - and I know it probably makes you feel dirty to think it ( ), but Bolton (again, once they'd established themselves as a Premier League side) did play some very tidy stuff.
I'm convinced - had both teams given him time - he would have done the same. Instead, they released him and they both went down.
At Bolton, no, it wasn't Galacticos stuff, or like Barca, but it was fairly stylish, fluid and pacey, with solid foundations, flair and counter attacking stuff too. Speeds and Campo mixing it with more technical players.
Yeah, they retained their sense of bullishness and ground out ugly wins and points, but I think that's fine for a club of ours and their stature at the moment.
We're on a better footing than they were when he took over there.
If we progress as a club, on the same rate/curve as they did, then I think we're all in for a good time.
This season is the big challenge, last season we should have gone up considering the strength of the team through the spine and the affordable playing budget.
The squad is short on numbers and even shorter on quality. 2 x holding midfielders and emphasise on not losing. It wont be good to watch either but clearly the mandate is survival.
On a positive note I think this scenario is right up the managers street.
With the squad we’ve got a 4th from bottom finish is a success.
I'm prob completly on my own with this but i get a buzz with the way BFS sets his team up, especially in the prem we are gonna be massive underdogs in alot of games, and if like all his other sides we start nicking results its gonna make this a brilliant season.
Since the daves took over BFS has been their best bit of buisness to date. Given the debt, the squad, the level of avalible investment and the mentality of that shower of **** we went down with he has done a good job. In the past he has achived alot on a limited budget in the premier league and for awhile bolton were an exciting, agressive side with a bit of pace and flair. not bad for an unattractive second div club when he started. I dont trust our current squad to keep us up, half as much as i do in his ability to make it happen.
As for Stoke wasn't they playing in europe while we were playing in the championship last season????? i really think we shouldnt throw stones about football whilst residing in a glass house. ( have you forgot who our last two managers were?)
His teams always over perform, always battle for everything, are well organised and scare the **** out of ARSENAL. I do agree that this is not the west ham way but i really dont have a problem with it.
Its not pretty, but its the medicine we need for a couple of seasons at which point im sure every fan would like some one to come in and make a real push for something special. but it will all come from what happons in the next couple of seasons.
IMHO of course
"WE HOOF IT IN THE AIR, WE HOOF IT THE AIR, I REALLY DONT CARE, I REALLY DONT CARE"
All this talk and not much room in the squad. A quality RB and CH will do.
Squad - JOB, Spence, Hall. Baldy?
Defo need a RB .... However Id love to see collins and tomkins as the first choice partnership
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