Tactics and the first team

[Bobby Orangeboom]

Three at the back and a pair up front and i'm happy, Sam can worry about the rest..

[Matt of iron]

I think the Diarra signing is a reaction from big Sam regarding playing Maiga and Vaz in the team.

They will be good going forward but fairly pants in the other end.

Two huge brick **** houses who can hold for us will make us much more solid.

I like.

[DrVenk]

Very interesting stats Bob. Nice find. Trouble is, they reveal bugger all...richer teams who can afford flair players will be able to play more varied formations. So the data on formations and their associated relative success probably reveal the nature of the playing squad available (and other unobserved variables like ability to appoint the best tactically minded managers), not the strength of the formation.

Produce the same stats with a multivariate analysis controlling for wages spent, then perhaps the 'pure effect' of formation can be demonstrated

[Wilko1304]

I posted the following on the transfers thread (whilst people worried whether Diarra, Diame, Nolan and Nobes could be in one midfield) but its probably more fitting here:

There is scope for Diame, Nolan, Diarra and Noble to fit into our midfield having watched how fluidly our midfield rotated itself around when we were playing well. I always thought it was notable how much wider Jack played than Lansbury, and considering that Jack didn't play that wide it is obvious to most of us that whilst Vaz Te is used more like a winger, the other side was balanced up with a midfielder a little wide. However, between Nolan, Noble and O'Neil, especially the latter two, it wasnt a case of playing a specific position but moving with the ball (where it was heading not dribbling it per se) and taking responsibility for space. As such, Noble could very easily take that slightly wider berth and then shift with Diame and Diarra as we play, never really holding a wide position but filling the gaps of necessity. Its why I rated O'Neil so highly last year, him and Noble showed great brains to make that midfield much more fluid. It also gives Noble the option of drifting in to start play and also getting closer to the business end, where his passing and creativity have not been able to flourish for a good while (him and Tevez worked magic in tandem at times) without having to always worry about being the deepest midfielder.

I can hear the cries against this already, but Jack was never our winger, O'Neil was never our winger, Lansbury was never our winger, they were part of a system that on paper would suggest a wide player but of course formations on paper are nonsense a lot of the time. Mark won't beat a man but he will put in a shift, can tackle, has a good brain and is a much better passer of the ball when its moving so could put in a decent, deep cross. If we are playing poorly, and get a little rigid, I wouldn't be so keen on it, but if Sam can get the midfield rotating itself smartly like it did in plenty of games near the end of the season then it would probably contribute to better play on the deck in midfield and more confidence with the ball to feet in the middle of the park.

Just a thought. Certainly excited by the prospect of another defensive (ish) reinforcement, I can feel my youth slipping away every time I get excited about defensive acquisitions

[Wilko1304]

Lovely stat find Bobby. Interesting to see whether they discussed if those variations are subjective or not, because it's hard to say 451 and 4231 are different, and how you define it as a formation considering positional play depends on opponents (ie player 1 spent most time here, however against better opposition, in the same lineup, spent more time deeper). Might tweet it to Zonal Marking, the guy does some good formation analysis at times.

[The Moth]

Bob, I cannot figure out how those stats hold any sort of credibility and are (IMO) utterly pointless.

Who's decided what 4-3-3 is to a 4-5-1 for example? How does the data reflect the in game changes to team set ups?

You often state that stats simply provide facts or truths that can't be argued, it's only our own interpretation of those facts that's debatable. But when stats, like the ones here, are based merely on interpretation in an over simplified format it holds absolutely no relevance or insight.

[Turns to Stone]

This probably belongs in here really, it's taking up valuable Twitter space in the rumours thread at the moment:-

Last season we were all moaning about the lack of 'proper wingers' whilst Allardyce was attempting to try Sears and Baldock and Faubert in these positions and they were awful. Once we got Vaz Te and O'Neill in though we looked twice the team. I know that it's really hard to see when things aren't going well, but Allardyce will already have the main areas of his team arranged. He's got his back 4. He'll have two deep lying central midfielders (2 of Noble, Diame and hopefully Diarra), Nolan will obviously start ahead of them with Cole and Maiga battling for the central forward's role.

He then has options. Normally, you and I would look at it and say, well he needs two wingers obviously! But that isn't the way that Allardyce works, he'll look for a player who can give him something going forward and back, who can track the full-back, who can deliver a cross but who will also work hard. He won't be saying 'Get me a winger'!

In the same way that some are wondering about the signing of Diarra as he's a 'Defensive-Midfielder', again, Sam won't be thinking like that. He'll be thinking he has an very good, versatile footballer who can cover in the centreof midfield and defence, who brings leadership and also masses of experience. It's not as simple as saying 'winger', 'striker', 'defensive midfielder' any more.

I'm sure from what I've read from BrownFatwa and Pezza, and from what I've surmised from the rumours that Carlton would be free to leave if he wisehd. That Maiga has been brought in as competition for both Vaz Te and currently Cole, but that the hunt for a possible replacement for Cole is still on if the right man is available (Adebayor, Carroll Lukaku etc). I've also gleaned from BrownFatwa that the hunt is still on for someone to play the role on the other side of Vaz Te/Maiga and that a right-sided player is still being hunted. This is probably where we would see a 'winger' if anywhere, but again, I don't think that it will necessarily be the conventional winger that some on here might hope for.

Either way though, I've seen enough from the likes of Vaz Te and Maynard last season to think that Allardyce's preference of a 2nd striker slightly wider is actually pretty effective, just as long as you have the right player there. Hopefully with Vaz Te and Maiga both capable of it, we'll be ok.

[Turns to Stone]

I do enjoy a good stat, Bob. But have to agree with Moth to a certain extent with this one. I think Europe's really though as someone like Celtic could play a 4-0-6 formation and they'd still win 90% of their games. I'd be very interested to see a similar stat for the top 4 leagues in Europe or maybe a Premier League one, again though as Moth says many formations are fluid.

Always a very good discussion point as well.

(Personally, I never trust a back 3!)

[The Moth]

Morning TTS

Do you feel the balance of the team, on the whole, is sufficient and do you have any concerns of the potential lack of a plan B?

[szola]

(Personally, I never trust a back 3!)

Juventus 2011/12

[Turns to Stone]

Morning TTS

Do you feel the balance of the team, on the whole, is sufficient and do you have any concerns of the potential lack of a plan B?

Balance wise, no. I think we're in dire need of some creativity or pace. With one or both of those, I can honestly see us challenging for top 12/13. As things stand I think that my confidence is based more on the lack of managerial experience of the clubs in and around us West Brom, Norwich, Swansea, Reading, Southampton only Chris Hughton of those clubs managers has ever managed in the top flight and that wasn't for very long. As long as the fans and owners don't panic, I think that over a season we actually have a bit more about us than 3 of those clubs.

I also am very confident that we'll utilise the loan market quite well. Clearly G and S are quite happy to pay the bulk of some players wages, so I think that looking around the bottom half of the Premier League we also have that advantage. I don't have any inside info at all, but I do actually think that we might see a very good Top 4 or 5 back-up player find themselves at West Ham by the end of August. To pick up Bentley, Lansbury and Almunia last season is pretty impressive for a Championship club, so I think now that we are back in the Premier League I'm hopeful that we can see a couple of very good players still arrive on loan.

In terms of Plan B though, I don't think we had one last year and I don't think we'll need one this to stay up. We'll need to play really well and Plan A will have to be executed very, very well. But can I see us getting 10 wins and 10 draws. I think I can at the moment.

It's going to be a tough season though, and I'm hopeful that we'll see more fight from the players and the coaches than we have in our previous two Premier League seasons....that in itself will actually help the crowd get behind the players.

[carnage]

Its interesting, shows you generally score more goals with 1 up front.

[Bobby Orangeboom]

Bob, I cannot figure out how those stats hold any sort of credibility and are (IMO) utterly pointless.

Who's decided what 4-3-3 is to a 4-5-1 for example? How does the data reflect the in game changes to team set ups?

You often state that stats simply provide facts or truths that can't be argued, it's only our own interpretation of those facts that's debatable. But when stats, like the ones here, are based merely on interpretation in an over simplified format it holds absolutely no relevance or insight.

I don't disagree with you at all actually as i have my own personal beliefs that are not too dissimilar to what you're saying there, about numerical formations..

I should have said " This table represents the perception of formations and who plays what one, by this particular website." to cover my own bottom.

The only way to be sure on a formation that is played is if you have confirmation from that respective Manager/Coach and i think in modern football now, shape and also individual responsibilities are talked about more than any rigid 10 digit set formation anyway.

[Bobby Orangeboom]

I'd be very interested to see a similar stat for the top 4 leagues in Europe or maybe a Premier League one, again though as Moth says many formations are fluid.

That was from the top 5 Leagues in Europe, sorry i should have said.

I'd assume that would be English, Spanish, Italian, French and German although it actually doesn't detail which ones, just says top 5.

[Yea Why Not]

With the season fast approaching its looks like we have three center halfs who are fit and raring to go. So heres the question, what two of Reid, Collins and Tomkins would you go with not only for the first match but for the coming weeks in the hope that they can form a solid partnership

I'm sure not many would agree but I’d be leaning towards Reid & Collins myself....

[Pepin]

Has been thinking about it a lot recently, but did not manage to make my mind on this one.
I will have to leave it to BFS.
Depends in what kind of fitness and form did Tonks return from Olympics etc.

I have even bigger dillemma regarding the midfield personally with Diarra and Diame in the squad now.

[BPRIGGSC]

I think what's interesting, is that not only are all 3 good defenders, but will offer so much attacking set pieces. I can see him going with Tomkins and Collins for the first game, I do honestly believe that he will want Collins for experience, and that Tomkins is a better defender then Reid, tho it is close. Tomkins offered so much last season from corners. I wouldn't be surprised if out centre halves have more shots at goal in a few matches this season then our centre forwards do!

[Yea Why Not]

Tomkins is a better defender then Reid

I didn't think there was anything between them at all last season if i'm honest. In fact, i'd probably say that I thought Reid was slightly better. Although it may well be the Millwall goal that swings it...

[The Old Man of Storr]

I've been busy with my little piece of paper and pen and no matter what formation I choose , I find it hard to accomodate Mark Noble .if everyone's fit . Hmmmmmm .

[mjustincredible]

it doesnt show Spains 4-6-0 formation which won Euro 2012