Our away form and tactics

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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby Bobby Orangeboom on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:10 pm

simon1982 wrote:
Big chances for Collison and Diarra today - both didn't take them!
.


It was Diarra's first Premier League 90 mins.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby westhamerica on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:17 pm

Morocco Mole wrote:We did get caught in possession a ridiculous amount of times today. :thup:

Again, I don't see what 'tactics' have to do with this though.....


I guess the argument you could make is that an adjustment to the system away from home has to be made at some point, given our results this season. What that change could be though, I don't know -- I'd suspect it would have to be at the expense of Kevin Nolan, a catch-22 in a Sam Allardyce world.

westhamdave1 wrote:Sunderland are NOT a good team.End of,no argument.


People were saying this in the match thread as well, and I don't quite understand it. Sure they've been inconsistent, but on paper they have a better man leading the line than we have, a better man playing behind the striker, better wide players, and experienced center halves.

Our entire three man midfield was bossed by David Vaughan. He played out of his skin today. Credit where it is due is probably in order instead of hyperbolic statements like they are bad team.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby simon1982 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:31 pm

It was Diarra's first Premier League 90 mins.[/quote]

He played against united last week who are far better opposition then sunderland. He was poor today and fwiw i didn't he was anything spectacular last week! opinions eh.

the whole team were bad today but i expected a lot more from our midfield which on paper was a very strong one! I don't think anyone put in a challenge during the 1st half
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby HarrowInnHammer on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:34 pm

Away tactics are pony in the games I've been to, 5 away goals all season says it all.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby DrVenk on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:34 pm

Collison and Diarra lacking match practice + Nolan off form = inability to retain possession and create chances.

Today highlighted how much we rely on Noble to keep possession ticking over and Diame to get hold of the ball and run at the opposition. We needed Jarvis and J. Cole to show that bit of flair today, but we just couldn't the ball to them due to our midfield trio being off colour.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby simon1982 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:36 pm

westham,eggyandchips wrote:I dont care what anyone says- you cant play the same at home as you do away (in the prem). Sam might argue that we dont, from where im standing we do, and it looks *****.

If more teams took a chance and had a real go at us when we're at home rather than sit back like some do then I fear for us.

We've done very well this season and I dont think we'll go down, but our tactics are being sussed out and it needs to change quick, or we could be in trouble next season.


It's not tactics imo - we aren't a team blessed with pace, especially through the spine of the team. We don't get across the ground quickly in the middle of the park bar the exception of Diame, if a players gets the wrong side of our midfield we aren't getting back to put in a tackle. That was evident today as we got pulled all over the shop!
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby simon1982 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:39 pm

westham,eggyandchips wrote:I dont care what anyone says- you cant play the same at home as you do away (in the prem). Sam might argue that we dont, from where im standing we do, and it looks *****.

If more teams took a chance and had a real go at us when we're at home rather than sit back like some do then I fear for us.

We've done very well this season and I dont think we'll go down, but our tactics are being sussed out and it needs to change quick, or we could be in trouble next season.


It's not tactics imo - we aren't a team blessed with pace, especially through the spine of the team. We don't get across the ground quickly in the middle of the park bar the exception of Diame, if a players gets the wrong side of our midfield we aren't getting back to put in a tackle. That was evident today as we got pulled all over the shop!
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby szola on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:52 pm

To put some numbers on the board.

At home we have: 5-3-3 with 19 goals for and 13 against
Playing away it's: 2-2-6 with 5 goals for and 14 against

Our points away have been Qpr with previous manager, Newcastle after Euro game, Norwich and WBA - two dreadful games allround.

Imo we've been lucky to have played Qpr before :arry: took over, and Newcastle after the midweek game.

We have more or less the same structure home and away, but press more aggressively at home.
Imo we look a tighter unit at home, because of our aggressive pressing.
When we stretch our team we seldom get a result.

Cole/Carroll are too far from the second attacking wave, and the majority of our midfielder are too slow.
Our goal ratio show we are very predictable going forward, and lack a goalscoring machine.

And to be honest, we don't have a good squad. We have some good players, and some of the ones who have stepped up have done a very good job. But we are playing players out of position, getting them onto the pitch as soon as possible. Forcing the same approach doesn't help, and not strengthening enough in the summer doesn't help.

All this add up to the 2-2-6.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby swerley on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:54 pm

simon1982 wrote:It's not tactics imo - we aren't a team blessed with pace, especially through the spine of the team. We don't get across the ground quickly in the middle of the park bar the exception of Diame, if a players gets the wrong side of our midfield we aren't getting back to put in a tackle. That was evident today as we got pulled all over the shop!


Is it pace through the midfield why the team always seems to give 3-5 chances for the other team to get behind our defense...even if 95% of the time it is offsides? Sunder did that at least twice today. I can't remember the last time Cole or anyone got a run behind the opposition and a ball played to them while moving that was quality. Why doesn't that happen for us? Is it the tatics? Or the players?

In another aspect...the team never seems to blaze forward. When they try...the ball rolls out of bounds or to the other team. They constantly stop...I guess to allow others to push forward...which rarely happens. It almost seems the attacking players are asked to assist the defense too much.

Then again, I don't know football really well. This is just what I've seen on the screen against Reading and now Sunderland.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby szola on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:58 pm

simon1982 wrote:It's not tactics imo - we aren't a team blessed with pace, especially through the spine of the team. We don't get across the ground quickly in the middle of the park bar the exception of Diame, if a players gets the wrong side of our midfield we aren't getting back to put in a tackle. That was evident today as we got pulled all over the shop!


I wholeheartedly agree with your point about pace, although I'd argue that we try to camouflage our sloth army somewhat differently at home, and away. Therefore it is tactics.

Imo we've played our best football when pressing well.

For some reason we can't press well for a whole game, and team have been told to stand more off away.

Guessing the material Allardyce works with is one reason, and his stubborn ways is another.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby simon1982 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:10 pm

That team are only capable of pressing when Diame is in the side, we aren't quick enough.

Chelsea is the prime example of this. Diame's ability to cover ground (proper athlete) allows us to get up the pitch and win the ball back in advanced areas where we then play from. He is also strong with the ball at his feet. Take this guy out of any midfield and the others will struggle, especially one as one paced as ours.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby Bobby Orangeboom on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:12 pm

simon1982 wrote:
He played against united last week who are far better opposition then sunderland. He was poor today and fwiw i didn't he was anything spectacular last week! opinions eh.

the whole team were bad today but i expected a lot more from our midfield which on paper was a very strong one! I don't think anyone put in a challenge during the 1st half


Yeah, it was still his first Premier League 90 mins and football isn't played on paper.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby simon1982 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:17 pm

Yeah, it was still his first Premier League 90 mins and football isn't played on paper.[/quote]

My point is that you would expect more from that midfield! We never earned the right to play!
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby Johnny Pa(i)ntsil on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:20 pm

szola wrote:Imo we've played our best football when pressing well.

For some reason we can't press well for a whole game, and team have been told to stand more off away.

Guessing the material Allardyce works with is one reason, and his stubborn ways is another.


Agreed.
Was thinking this even with our home games. We give teams space, stand off and channel, whereas when we have the ball we are pressed all the way back to our goalie. Admittedly, it's difficult to press a team hard, unless you are confident that you can recover when you're in possession.
I honestly don't think that today's starting XI had trained together, so this was making the best of our situation. Today was more an ugly example of having neither pace nor being smart in possession.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby miles on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:23 pm

simon1982 wrote:My point is that you would expect more from that midfield! We never earned the right to play!


Jack and Diarra looked exhausted, and probably were. Collison's 4th straight start after 6 months out. He'd probably have been rested if Noble was fit. No excuses for Nolan and Jarvis though. Calling them pitiful would be too kind if we were to describe their attempts out there today.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby Westcliff Hammer on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:35 pm

Was also Tomkins chance to step up and take the chance he's wanted and make Sam sit up take notice, Did he?..nope
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby hawkins_hammer on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:13 pm

What scares me is that we are being cautious and playing route 1 against teams we shouldn't fear... Such as sunderland. We didn't try and work it wide to our dangerous players, we lumped it to them. That is the case in every away game we play unfortunately. It has to be tactics.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby Blackythebanktramp on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:21 pm

bad performance, bad result. not to mull over. get the players a couple of beers on the bus home and focus on man utd game. we were brilliant away from home last year but i suspected that we may strufggle this time. without our main men in the middle of the park we're going to get found out home and away. could be worse, we could be crap at home aswell. we'll be fine due to our home performances and the squad is getting strengthened this window. could be worse, could be villa.
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby Morocco Mole on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:22 pm

hawkins_hammer wrote:What scares me is that we are being cautious and playing route 1 against teams we shouldn't fear... Such as sunderland. We didn't try and work it wide to our dangerous players, we lumped it to them. That is the case in every away game we play unfortunately. It has to be tactics.


Not for me. Not today anyway.

They simply bossed us in midfield. Jumped all over us from the first whistle and we never got close to them when they had it. Particularly in the first half.

The second goal coming when it did and how it did (we were up their end for a corner) killed us when I felt we might just have been able to make a fist of it.....
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Re: Our away form and tactics

Postby Rocketron on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:30 pm

Westcliff Hammer wrote:Was also Tomkins chance to step up and take the chance he's wanted and make Sam sit up take notice, Did he?..nope

What do you thinik he did wrong?
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