Andy Carroll

[Turns to Stone]

I do find it odd that some of the people moaning about Carroll's professionalism on Saturday are advocating chucking Sakho back into the first team.

Personally, I wouldn't have Sakho anywhere near the club for his behaviour after the last couple of years and I wouldn't have Carroll anywhere near a starting place until he's fought his way back in for a couple of months.

[Row X]

A very tired argument mate. Players normally get dug out if they're playing crap, not due to nationality.

Carroll has offered us very little this season apart from grief. He deserves the critisim, as would any other player not pulling their weight.

OK, if he has offered very little, I'll give you a stat:

West Ham United have not lost a game that Andy Carroll has started this season, and every point we have gained have come from games he has started.

I suppose that's just a coincidence though.

He's one of our better and more important players.

[The Old Man of Storr]

Regardless of the what, why, who, I'm at a stage now where I'm just utterly fed up of supporting West Ham with Andy Carroll in it's squad list.

Is it because we lack the necessary players to provide the ammunition for Carroll [ and Hernandez ] to score ? Watching Hernandez making runs in the box only for Antonio to choose the wrong pass frustrates me more than seeing Carroll's name on the Squad List - we sold Feghouli , the best crosser of the ball at West Ham for £3.5m and bought Arnautovic for £22m who appears to have done nothing bar not getting a penalty v Tottenham [ yes I realise it's early days ] . We need someone who can knit the midfield together - against Brighton I'd bring back Noble but play him further upfield and drop Kouyate to the bench . Otherwise revert to the back 5 with Lanzini behind Hernandez - Carroll and Hernandez are suffering through lack of service .

[steps]

West Ham United have not lost a game that Andy Carroll has started this season, and every point we have gained have come from games he has started.

I suppose that's just a coincidence though.

He's one of our better and more important players.

Bit of a trivial stat.

We lost against Spurs when he came on very early in the match and then went on tocost us the first goal.

Friday will be the acid test anyway, that's if Bilic starts Sakho and Hernandez of course.

Carroll is an important player but I don't believe he's being used properly.

Start games with pace in the team, go direct if we need to later on.

[mooro_19841]

I cant believe people think AC should still start.

Impact sub, at best.

[Row X]

Bit of a trivial stat.

We lost against Spurs when he came on very early in the match and then went on tocost us the first goal.

Friday will be the acid test anyway, that's if Bilic starts Sakho and Hernandez of course.

Carroll is an important player but I don't believe he's being used properly.

Start games with pace in the team, go direct if we need to later on.

That's for another debate, about shape and systems... but I said I hate people moaning, so I won't moan

[Patito]

We need someone who can knit the midfield together - against Brighton I'd bring back Noble but play him further upfield and drop Kouyate to the bench

Lanzini + Obiang/Noble + Kouyate for me! (Antonio right, Arnie left, Chicharito up front.)

[Crouchend_Hammer]

A very tired argument mate. Players normally get dug out if they're playing crap, not due to nationality.

Carroll has offered us very little this season apart from grief. He deserves the critisim, as would any other player not pulling their weight.

I woukd say it is the opposite. If Carroll wasn't English and a lad who liked the booze and nights out, he woukd be far less popular on here

Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate why people do like him because of that. We can identify with that behaviour.

His 'englishness' works massively in his favour

[Crouchend_Hammer]

I do find it odd that some of the people moaning about Carroll's professionalism on Saturday are advocating chucking Sakho back into the first team.

Personally, I wouldn't have Sakho anywhere near the club for his behaviour after the last couple of years and I wouldn't have Carroll anywhere near a starting place until he's fought his way back in for a couple of months.

Not me. I woukdnt play carroll because I don't think he is much cop. His sending off was silly, but seen worse.

[Hello there!]

Compelling argument.

I'm already convinced.

None so blind etc.

I was disappointed when we signed him and have seen nothing since to convince me otherwise. His contribution considered as a whole, with regard to cost, effectiveness, time injured, the limitations of his playing style and their effect on the team is pretty woeful.

[Turns to Stone]

I woukd say it is the opposite. If Carroll wasn't English and a lad who liked the booze and nights out, he woukd be far less popular on here

Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate why people do like him because of that. We can identify with that behaviour.

His 'englishness' works massively in his favour

I don't think I like him because of his Englishness. I think I like him because his work ethic actually enlivens the rest of the team. Without getting into a discussion about his footballing ability, I think what he does have in his favour is an incredible passion to work his socks off for the team, to massively put himself about and to put 100% into everything he does on a pitch. It's that I think that can often push those around him and get us playing better collectively. Mark Noble has the same strength (in a different way) and it's a strength that we hugely admired in Billy Bonds and Julian Dicks.

Carroll has his flaws, but his passion, his guts, his work ethic and his effort are, in my opinion, of huge value to the team. But they went too far on Saturday.

That's the reason I like him - if those things are 'Englishness' then fair enough, but I think they are also characteristics that don't exist in all English players.

Obviously it's just an opinion, but I think he gives a lift to the other players around him when he's in the side.

[Patito]

I'm already convinced.

None so blind etc.

I was disappointed when we signed him and have seen nothing since to convince me otherwise. His contribution considered as a whole, with regard to cost, effectiveness, time injured, the limitations of his playing style and their effect on the team is pretty woeful.

Yes, you're right, he's a terrible footballer and anyone who says otherwise is blind.

[S-H]

I've thought on numerous occasion, that it's a miracle he doesn't get sent off more often, with the way he likes to play.

But to take that all action, no nonsense mentality out of him, you're losing all of what makes him an asset, the way he plays, is what gives him that edge, and why many people in the media call for him to be in the National team set up.

Do I think he should be starting games for West Ham, no. Do I think he is a valuable member of the squad, yes!

He is a rarity in the modern game and should only be considered by both club and country as a plan b option only.

[Hello there!]

Yes, you're right, he's a terrible footballer and anyone who says otherwise is blind.

Yes.

[DrVenk]

This is his 6th season with us...only 2 of those seasons has he started more than 20 games, and one of those seasons when he was on loan with us way back on 2012. You basically have to write off half a season with the lad.

Now, he has just under a 1 in 3 goal ratio with us. That's decent, but here's the rub for me...£15million transfer fee, and wages of over £4million a year. The opportunity cost of having Carroll around is significant. He takes a fair % chunk of our wages for one player, and basically hampers how much resources we can free up each summer. And I bet there's always a lingering doubt in the board's mind - "we can't go for a £30m striker..we essentially have one of those...if we can just keep Andy fit...etc. etc."

Not that I trust the clowns to stump up for a decent striker regardless of AC, but that's for another thread. The point is his presence hampers us financially.

On the field, a consensus seems to have emerged that he hampers us playing style wise. His re-introduction to the team after his perennial injury leaves of absences seems to disrupt our style of play. I know others will see it differently, but I find his presence now very jarring. We do resort to a more direct style of play. This doesn't mean we 'lump it', but it does mean we seem to by-pass our midfield a lot more. I suspect most of us on here want to see the majority of our play go through Lanzini, to see him build a pattern of play with the support of Obiang and another AM (previously Payet, now Arno).

So the second point is, with Carroll in the team, I don't think you can adopt a style of play that prioritises other players, like Lanzini. The game ends up by passing such players a bit more because of the shift to a more direct style. Carroll's presence forces us to prioritise his strengths rather than the strengths of others, and we can't seem to escape that. It's rather tiring.

He used to be a conundrum for me..how best to keep him fit and how best to utilise him with the other players we have.

After 5+ seasons, he is now just a nuisance. And a very costly one at that.

[EvilC]

Venk - good post.

[ludo22]

He's a terrible footballer. I wouldn't have him anywhere near the team unless all the other strikers were injured.
Given that, I'd sell him asap.

Thanks for the informed opinion and insight.Whatever your opinion of him,he isn't a "terrible footballer".He's played for England,Liverpool and West Ham and has put in some top performances.IMO,he is an "awkward" footballer whose general value is also seriously affected by his injury record.Therefore,he has to be used in exactly the right situations by a manager who's really on the ball.Are we doing that?Not in my opinion.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

Very well put Venk

My historical dislike for him has always had some impact on my negative stance towards him. I fully accept my cognitive bias has some influence, but how you analysed it was much more reasoned

And returning to the poster who said that 90% of defenders would least want to face him compared to our other forwards, i would fundamentally disagree (with the caveat that it is, of course, impossible to prove/ disprove)

[warp]

OK, if he has offered very little, I'll give you a stat:

West Ham United have not lost a game that Andy Carroll has started this season, and every point we have gained have come from games he has started.

I suppose that's just a coincidence though.

that's the problem with single player stats in a team sport: if you cannot demonstrate that all the other factors in all those games where he did or did not play were the same (and you can't because they weren't) then yes, it may very well be a coincidence.

[hornsey]

this demonising of Carroll is ridiculous.
As reckless as it was on saturday, wtf the f*** is Billic doing slapping him with a fine, we still got a point.
Seem to remember after we lost recently he gave them that day off.
Billics the issue, Carroll gets little service and the team is constantly set up wrong.
Maybe he should be fined? or Fired?