Andy Carroll

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DaveWHU1964
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by DaveWHU1964 »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:Just because we hadn't heard of someone or suggested something shouldn't automatically mean the management are off the hook for not doing it. I am not employed full time by a football club to find players or devise our transfer strategy. People are within their rights to ask why we didn't sign Michu, or had even heard of him, if Swansea could. And I am just using Michu as an example because you mentioned him rather than saying we should have signed him
So did Swansea 'fail' in not signing Ravel? Not every club can notice every player. If the other nineteen clubs in the league were all fighting it out for Michu then I could understand that for us not to be involved in bidding for him MAY have been a mistake . But that wasn't the case was it? Other than Laudrup you can call out every manager in the league for not signing Michu, but some fans (genuinely not digging you out here btw) are so myopic that they only see it as a 'mistake' by Allardyce and not by others. Makes no sense.
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by Jumby »

Here's a dark thought, if Carroll was out for the season and went down what's the betting that, in the summer, he'd join Newcastle, no the cheap, or on loan? I know, it's just a thought though, and one that, could be, a very real one given our history.
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by the pink palermo »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:Ok, TPP. What happens if due to Sam investing his budget in Carroll we get relegated because he hardly plays this season ( not that unlikely scenario) and thus Carroll leaves, can we then say it was a mistake? Of do we still have to sing the tune and say it was a good signing and he was worth the money?
All Managers live or die by their decisions .

AvB for example might be having sleepless nights at the moment .Sam though will be sleeping soundly .

Only at West Ham could fans be calling out the Manager for signing a 34 times capped player in Downing and a young, capped centre forward in Carroll .

Solgardo, Michu, Bonny, Wolfswinkle ......never heard of those guys , much as I had never heard of Maiga .Signing any player is a risk , but signing one who had a year long trial less of one .
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by Irrons »

Major wrote:Its called perspective when you think of things rationally like this you should try it
The rational perspective is that Carroll has been crocked all season and as Allardyce has clearly stated we have no idea when he'll be back fit.

The rational perspective is also that 1 crocked 15m Carroll + Carlton Cole + Modibo Maiga + Mladen (also crocked) Petric does not stack up to a strike force of Shane Long, Victor Anichebe, Matěj Vydra, Nicholas Anelka and Saido Berahino.

If Carroll returns our strikeforce still isn't anywhere near as good as West Brom's in terms of their options and the different types of strikers they have.

We have literally put all our eggs in one basket, and then promptly went and dropped it. Hope that's rational enough for you
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

I agree with you. I just made the point on this thread that in my opinion signing Carroll was not the best option available for the money, and used WBA as an example,. It seems you are not allowed to question his signing at all without being seen as clueless because people think / predict/ hope he might come good at some point in the future, when there is just as much chance it won't
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

TPP - it is not as simple as that. We spent 15m of our limited budget on one injured striker and then another £6m on a winger we didn't really need who let's be honest most people have always been mystified how he has amassed so many caps. I don't particularly rate Carroll therefore don't see it as great signing. As I asked before, if we get relegated because of it, and he leaves, will it still gave been a good signing?
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by DaveWHU1964 »

the pink palermo wrote:
Carroll played well for us last season - I sometimes wonder what it is people want .
Agreed. And lest we forget, for us, signing Carroll was a huge, huge deal. But Chelsea, City etc wouldn't have looked at him- they have bigger, more expensive fish to fry. But for us, as a middling (at best) club it was a statement of intent and a signal that we were going to try to be more than we have been for most of our existence.

Unlike the big boys though we didn't have the clout to then spend more on another decent forward who'd have been able to compete/ fill in for Andy. It's a shame that actually showing a bit of ambition is being used as a stick to beat the club with. Seeing how the fans have reacted I couldn't blame them for retreating into their comfort zone of signing £4 million strikers and freebies.
Last edited by DaveWHU1964 on Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

And regarding his year long trial, he was injured for half of it. Hardly a ringing endorsement for signing him up!
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by Irrons »

the pink palermo wrote:
Solgardo, Michu, Bonny, Wolfswinkle
Soldado has played in the Champions League, and was pretty prolific for Valencia, Michu ok, but he was the top scoring midfielder in La Liga in 2011-12 before being snapped up by Swansea, Bony scored 37 goals in 36 appearances last season, albeit in the dutch league, van Wolfswinkel ok you have a point - but I'd heard of 3 out of 4 of them. Never heard of Maiga before we were interested in him...I think we could have done alot better imo
Last edited by Irrons on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

I suppose it just boils down to the fact that I was not that impressed by Carroll last season and never have been so I don't have the same belief it was a great signing, injury or not, especially for our entire transfer budget
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by Irrons »

For the record, I do think Carroll is a decent striker, and given good service he will score goals no doubt about that, when (if?) he does return. But signing Downing instead of a decent backup striker has absolutely ****ed us this season, all the more so considering we have built the entire attacking ethos around Carroll as the target man, with Jarvis and Downing on the wing and Nolan feeding off the knockdowns
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by DaveWHU1964 »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:I suppose it just boils down to the fact that I was not that impressed by Carroll last season and never have been so I don't have the same belief it was a great signing, injury or not, especially for our entire transfer budget
I disagree with you about Carroll but do get what you're saying.

We have a limited budget, no bigger than most and vastly inferior to the real powers. What to do with it is the question. Spread the money thinly, buy four strikers at £4 million each knowing that at least that way we'd have someone to put on the pitch. Or take a risk (because if you spend it on just one man however good he is a risk is what it must be) and hope that player elevates you above the clubs with four mediocre strikers. And then add a similar marquee signing or two each year as and when you can afford it.

I think the club took the right option but with Andy's injury it can easily look like the wrong one. I hope we don't change tack and continue to pursue quality rather than quantity.
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by DaveWHU1964 »

Irrons wrote:But signing Downing instead of a decent backup striker has absolutely ****ed us this season,
We hear this a lot on here but sorry, it's wrong. Downing was neither here nor there to the signing of another striker. Regardless of signing Downing the striker situation would have stayed the same. We were not aiming to spend £6 million on another striker which then instead got blown on Downing. The strategy all Summer was to bring in a striker on loan- we know that. The club constantly pursued Lukaku right up until the last minute. We evidently had the wages for him so Downing's signing didn't affect that either.

Despite some of the idiocy we're seeing on another thread Allardyce isn't a fool. Like us he knew his priority was a striker but he had absolutely no reason to believe that the signing of Downing would have jeopordised that. Otherwise he'd have never signed Downing.
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by mushy »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:I suppose it just boils down to the fact that I was not that impressed by Carroll last season and never have been so I don't have the same belief it was a great signing, injury or not, especially for our entire transfer budget
Which is a fair enough opinion, but if true how do you explain our current demise?
Bearing in mind you have already stated he missed half of last season, how come we coped last year and not this?
Our squad on paper looks stronger to me.
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by Welling »

I'm pretty sure that if everything had gone to plan, the vast majority of West Ham fans would have agreed that the intended line-up of

Jaaskelainen

Demel
Reid
Tomkins
Rat

Downing
Noble
Diame
Morrison
Jarvis

Carroll

Subs: Adrian, O'Brien, Collins, Diarra, Nolan, Vaz Te, J Cole

Would have been one of the most exciting West Ham sides for a good number of years and probably the best of all the sides outside the top 6. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm hopeful we'll see it just after Xmas.

In my 41 years as a Hammer, we've been in far worse situations.
Last edited by Welling on Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by smarthammer »

Bang on Welling – lady luck never seems around for us.

And £6m get’s you what? OK - it might of paid the wages/loan fee of a top striker who wouldn't come or another Maiga? Cole? Petric? = why bother.

Try picking a team for Saturday without putting Downing in it?
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by Morocco Mole »

Welling wrote:I'm pretty sure that if everything had gone to plan, the vast majority of West Ham fans would have agreed that the intended line-up of ...
Nolan on the bench..... :lol:
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by GingerJohn »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:Here we go again. Someone says something 'Major' disagrees with and up he pops Comming ging them off. My opinion is my opinion. Nothing to do with having to wait for Carroll, or being impatient. I would prefer to have their four strikers over a fit Carroll anyway, because as have mentioned before I don't rate him much. If I am proved wrong and he gets fit and bangs in the goals great, but not everyone had your unshakeable belief in his ability. Nothing to do with being a 'girl' or a 'sulk' or part of the 'McDonalds generation' or whatever that is supposed to be - some kind of 'clever' link to not waiting to wait for stuff I suppose

I find him funny as f***, Accuses you of sulking by throwing his toys out of his pram and at anyone else who dares disagree with him :D . Doesn't seem capable of actually holding a conversation without ranting. People like that are usually non to clever. Best just do as I do mate and laugh at those types. It's good that he makes an effort to contribute tho bless him.

With regards to Carroll I agree buying him was mental seeing as he was already injured and imo just isn't that good. He will score goals but not enough to warrent the wages he's managed to blag out of us. Has always been injury prone thus far in his carear. Not sure however longs any better but at least the guy actually plays I guess and probably not even on half of Carrolls wedge. Id take that right now.
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by Chicken Run Supreme »

the pink palermo wrote:Carroll played well for us last season - I sometimes wonder what it is people want .
They want it all, and they want it right now. No fu*king patience anymore. "Sack Sam", "Carroll's a c*nt", "G&S are greedy money grabbing tossers", "Brady's an 'orrible bitch" etc etc. You can't move for negative anti threads on here at the moment. I truly hope there is not a serious long term condition/injury that we don't know about, because a fit Andy Carroll is worth a darn sight more than we paid for him and if/when he returns, he will I am sure score the goals we so desparately need. In the mean time, these are worrying times but we still need to get behind the team and the manager, booing is not going to help anyone.
Keep the faith.
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Re: Carroll thread.

Post by prophet:marginal »

the pink palermo wrote:Andy Carroll is a good English centre forward imo and I'm sure the Manager will be vindicated in due course.
That, if I may say so, is doing what Sam himself did...unless we place the signing in context, Carroll looks very much like an 'all eggs, one basket' approach. That's a risk to act in that way. It can only be vindicated by a run of performances out-stripping what we had from the guy when he was on loan.

The reality (the context) is that, in the last window, there was a certain amount of money and a certain amount of freshening up of the squad necessary. Lets just keep this concentrated on the strikers.

All of the following are Sam's signings (in order of arrival).

Nolan
Vaz Te
Maiga
Carroll.

We can ignore the panicky punts on Petric and Cole.

Now whilst it was perhaps clear that Nolan and Carroll would be likely to fit together in a threatening attack, the former is no spring chicken, meaning we would need Carroll in good shape to make that partnership work.

I am also happy to accept that Vaz Te and Carroll are capable of playing well in the same team, but again, that is with AC as the fulcrum and Vaz Te making runs into space in the box for the knock ons and lay offs.

So far, so good...so long as Andy is fit.

As soon as Andy isn't fit, however, the wheels are already starting to come off our scoring capability. Nolan clearly cannot lead the line; his 'late in career' lack of mobility is totally shown up by his height deficiency. Its actually unfair on him to expect anything.

Vaz Te too is a striker's complement. He can't do Andy's job.

So, turn to Maiga, who I thought we'd retained for a form of 'Plan B' football, if/when we come up against teams that have planned and trained their response to our battering ram / hit and run style football. Again - he is never going to replicate Carroll's game. He is too physically different from him.

Go back to vindication. Carroll vindicates Sam if he has a season as good or better than his return of 7 goals in 25 matches, or indeed, does that more than once, carrying the team whilst we make necessary arrangements behind him in terms of Nolan being phased out (he surely can't play every game next season and the next...it would be madness).

He doesn't vindicate Sam by coming back after Christmas and scoring 3 or 4. Sorry, he is the fulcrum of the team. He's going to need a sight more goals than Cole in his last season to demonstrate that the fee/wage/lengthy wait were in fact all worth it.

At the moment, whoever's fault it is, the situation is internally embarrassing and externally scornfully hilarious.
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