Mark Noble - West Ham Legend 500 up

[Colours never run]

That doesn't tell the full story Exile, as our defence was knackered with key players out like Carroll and Antonio. Kouyate hasn't been the reason we've suddenly picked up points and Noble not in the side.

[Exiledin cardiff]

CNR that doesn't make sense you say our defence was knackered then name 3 attackers, what was it the attack or defence .

Nothing I saw from Noble has given me any confidence in him for this season. Hard as it is he cannot be an automatic choice shoe horned into the side as was Nolan under Sam

[steveherts66]

Cardiff.... i didn't say both. I was saying if we're looking for a ball player that is Lanzini. For me I wouldn't even have noble on the bench.

[Colours never run]

CNR that doesn't make sense you say our defence was knackered then name 3 attackers, what was it the attack or defence .

Nothing I saw from Noble has given me any confidence in him for this season. Hard as it is he cannot be an automatic choice shoe horned into the side as was Nolan under Sam

Sorry, I didn't word that correctly. The defence was knackered and needed changing after Newcastle and we also had key players out at the beginning of the season like Carroll.

Noble wasn't the issue however I don't see any harm whatsoever with him sitting it out for the time being. I think it does all players good to not play all the time. He should come back in when the time is right, full of beans to do well again.

[ballantine]

stevehert66 you say you'd play Noble and Lanzini who are you going to drop? Obiang our most disciplined DM, Kouyate not the best passer but runs all game, unless you want to drop Antonio just where does Noble fit in Lanzini can cover Kouyates position, but can Noble cover Obiangs? just where does Noble fit in now?

Think you might be referring to my post? With 5 (or 3, whatever we call it), i'd play Noble and Lanzini instead of Obiang and Kouyate. With that setup, we're solid enough at the back, and would benefit from the added creativity and passing in midfield.

[dodger]

Still disagree with you on some of your fundamental and oft-repeteaed points CNR

1. No, I do not think Noble was one of our better players in the first three games. Of course it's difficult to judge individuals when the whole team was so poor but what did he actually contribute? Did he prevent a goal? Did he create chances or nearly score himself? I don't recall those things happening. I recall sideways and backwards passing, a few tackles, and generally slowing the play down - his staples.

2. Kouyate is better than Noble in central midfield. You seem to prioritize passing accuracy over other attributes but anyone without Noble blinkers on can see Kouyate offers more. He is faster, stronger, offers more of an attacking threat, is harder to get past, is able to bring the ball up the pitch and also better in the air, something you do seem to value judging by your justification for playing Carroll against WBA for his defensive capabilities... His passing is his one clear weakness but even that isn't as terrible as you make out, just compromised by the fact that he doesn't play as many backwards and sideways passes as Noble.

3. The last three games with Noble we've lost them all, conceding 10. The last three without we've got 7 points, conceding 1. Simplistic maybe, but it suggests his impact as captain is also overstated if the team are more resilient without him.

Anyway, I wish we'd coughed up the money for Carvalho so this would all be moot. Somehow though, I think you'd still be conjuring up ways to get Noble into the team.

[MD_HM]

Didn't see the Newcastle match but in the other games I've seen Noble play this season he has been better than what we have seen from Kouyate, Fernandes and Obiang at CM so far.

Obiang's 45 yard shot today took the attention off yet another game that offered little but over hit sideways and backwards passing, he has been poor so far this season.

Kouyate's performance wasn't great today either, another that can't really pick a pass.

Having two CM's that can't really play a decent attacking ball forward, carry or hold the ball and striker on the wing has limited our forward play in the last two games; hence all the hoofing and crossing.

They both just want to pass the ball as soon as possible, like a hot potato

Don't get me wrong Noble's form over the last 12 months has a lot to be desired as well but the other CM's have not been great either.

I can see us trying not to lose against Spurs as we have seen in the last two games but hope we opt for a better passing, creative and attacking team after that.

[Colours never run]

Of course it's difficult to judge individuals when the whole team was so poor but what did he actually contribute? 



Dodger

Even when I oft-repeat the things I point out about Nobles game, it still gets ignored or overlooked. I've gone over in great depth in the past what he does well. And for 1 clear example in the Man Utd game alone - he laid it on a plate for 2 players only for them to fluff their lines. I'm really not going to go over old ground if even the obvious is being ignored in his game when he does do well.

What I will say is, we miss his abilities on the ball when he's not in the side, especially knitting the defence and midfield. We look rudderless in that respect and mainly hoof it because the players can't trust the current centre midfield pairing to dictate play. Now needs must and I dont mind it so much temporarily but I don't want to rely on it long term hoofing so often. We also lack real leadership and guidance at times out there when he wasn't on the pitch in those 1st few games. When he's on the pitch we were still in the game, he goes off we fall apart completely.

You mention the points we've achieved because he's out the side but like I've said previous, that doesn't tell the full story and you know it because we've completely changed the shape of the team to be more solid at the back first and foremost after hes been out the side, so it's more owing to that than any thought of Noble being the reason why we are now picking up points. Having a forward line of Carroll, Hernandez, Antonio available and in good form would also help..

Kouyate a better midfielder than Noble? Not in a month of Sunday's. I like some of Kouyates qualities (mainly defensive ones which is why I'd prefer him at the back) but it's Noble all day long out of the 2 in the middle. Passing is 1 of a footballers main skill sets and it can separate those that can play better at the game than others. Noble without question is one of the best Passers at the Club currently and I don't see how that can under played in any way, especially for a Midfielder. Something else Kouyates better than Noble at, is giving the ball away on more occasions than he does. In fact I'm noticing it more and more in Obiangs game as well but we don't make a song and dance abiut them doing it because we dont seem as ultra criticial about it as some do with Noble when he makes a rate misplaced pass. As for sideways and backwards passing... were you not watching today's game?? We switched sides at the back more often than I care to rememeber and when we did go forward it was hooded bypassing the midfield a lot of the time for the 2nd game running. Is that the type of football you prefer?

Today was another game in which we didn't win without him added to a long list of games now and the only wins we did manage was against Burnley and Huddersfield. Sometimes we only realise what we've got until it gone.

Agree with most of that MD.

[brooking1966]

Kouyate hasn't been the reason we've suddenly picked up points and Noble not in the side.

Kouyate is a big part imo, His physical presence allows us to press & get up the pitch.Noble on the other hand is a sitting duck easily pressed on the ball with no mobility allowing opponents to camp in our half.

You have this misconception that Noble's strength is passing with vision, c'mon mate, Lanzini is that guy.

Obiang is also the better passer imo although he has been guilty of forcing them lately, he's 24 & will only get better. I see he uses both feet short & long with genuine intent to pass forwards with more experience & confidence I see this improving.

Playing Lanzini & Noble the middle is a no go imo too lightweight & without power in the engine room we become forced to defend deep most of the game

[Colours never run]

My preferred midfield of all is Noble Lanzini Obiang in a midfield 3 (352). Kouyate has a place in my team but it's part of a back 3. But if we are going with just 2 in the middle, it would be Obiang and Noble with Lanzini floating about as part of a front 3.

[aaronhammer]

We look more solid without Noble as we have midfielders who have the legs to protect the full backs (in particular). We also have an increased tempo, although we lack attacking quality - not that Noble is the answer for this, that's Lanzini.

[hammerman11]

noble on the bench and cup games for me.

lanzini cant return quick eough

[MD_HM]

We look more solid as we are pretty much playing five at the back and have brought Carroll back; in large bypassing the midfield's need to play football and he acts as another CB when defending set pieces not as Noble has been missing.

Without Noble and Lanzini our CM's can't pass the ball forward.

One of the problems is we are buying players that don't fit with the team we have or formation we want to play... manager board problem again!

Last season the same thing happened, we were leaking goals so went more defensive with the wingbacks (5 at the back really) however apart from individual mistakes I still think a lot of it is due to our lack of quality going forward.

Last season pretty much no strikers and this season all of our midfielders comfortable on the ball and moving forward have been out (or not played together)

We didn't add enough quality in creative midfielders/forwards in the summer

There are certain players for different reasons you would expect need to play but they don't really fit with the formation, well to keep them all playing.

Hart - Sullivan's "name" signing
Zabaleta has been our best defender, you expect Reid to play, Cresswell to.
Lanzini, Antonio, Arnautovic (new 25m signing)
Hernandez

For me I see those 8 will be (should be) playing for different reasons and in large you want to keep them playing in their correct positions where possible... however I don't think it is

I'd also have Noble when fit but that's my own opinion

Given the above... and trying to play Obiang and Kouyate then...

--------------------- Hart------------------------
Zabaleta -- Reid -- Kouyate -- Cresswell
---------------Noble --- Obiang -----------
Antonio ------- Lanzini ------- Arnautovic
------- -------- Hernandez ------------------

Realistically Antonio and Arnautovic would be deeper for some of the game and you could play a CB and move Kouyate into CM to keep players in their right positions.

If you insist on "wingbacks"

------------------------- ---- Hart -------------------------
----------- - Zabaleta --- Reid --- Kouyate ----------
Antonio ------------------------------------------- Cresswell
---------------------- Noble -- Obiang ----------
------------- Lanzini----------------- Arnautovic--------
------------------------ Hernandez ------------------------

Either way you have players playing out of position to fit hem in, especially in the second line up

I've purposely left out Carroll as I'm not stupid enough to rely on him in any capacity

As Bilic has pointed out he has wanted a proper DM for some time but he board hasn't delivered

[bubbles1966]

With this squad our best set up is;

………............GK

....,...CB..,.....Reid.,...,.CB

WB..,.....Obiang.......Lanzini..,.......WB

..'...,..AM,.,.,.........................AM

,.,,......................CF

We have now lost just 1 game in the last 7 where Noble has been absent and have kept 5 clean sheets, which has been our Achilles heel since the day Slav turned up.

It's all well and good talking about his passing but it's just a single aspect of the game. Energy, tackling, heading, goalscoring, dribbling are all fairly critical characteristics as well.

A good case is being made for both Carvalho and Wilshire.

Rice and Fernandes could use a run out in this system.

[the pink palermo]

With this squad our best set up is;

………............GK

....,...CB..,.....Reid.,...,.CB

WB..,.....Obiang.......Lanzini..,.......WB

..'...,..AM,.,.,.........................AM

,.,,......................CF

If that is our best system for this group of players why have you only named 3 players to fit it ?

[MD_HM]

With this squad our best set up is;

………............GK

....,...CB..,.....Reid.,...,.CB

WB..,.....Obiang.......Lanzini..,.......WB

..'...,..AM,.,.,.........................AM

,.,,......................CF.............................

Well I haven't seen anything from Obiang this season that suggests he is better than Noble, yes he is a bit faster but that's about it, passing has been terrible. We will have to agree to disagree on Noble.

That formation is pretty much the same as the second I posted mind, however Lanzini further forward as I think him and Obiang in the middle will be overrun and bullied.

Going with yours I think the best we can field is:

------------------------- ---- Hart -------------------------
----------- - Zabaleta --- Reid --- Kouyate ----------
Antonio ----------- Noble -- Obiang ---------------- Cresswell
------------- Lanzini----------------- Arnautovic--------
------------------------ Hernandez ------------------------

However it looks like a lot of square pegs in round holes to fit a formation not suit our players to me

[bubbles1966]

Because the remaining positions can be alternated according to opposition.

For example, there is an argument to say that Masuaku's pace and dribbling skills might have hurt a team like WBA more than a string of crosses from Cresswell.

[the pink palermo]

Because the remaining positions can be alternated according to opposition.

For example, there is an argument to say that Masuaku's pace and dribbling skills might have hurt a team like WBA more than a string of crosses from Cresswell.

I'm sure it's clear in your mind , and of course you're under no obligation to explain it so I understand it , but we have a squad containing Carroll, Hernandez, Arnautovic, Zabaleta , Ayew and Antonio .

Who's playing most weeks ?

Or rather, who isn't ?

[only1post]

Playing three centre-backs and leaving out three of our centre-backs.

[bubbles1966]

Obiang is light years ahead of Noble in the energetic and defensive aspects of the game. From what I see, I wouldn't place Noble in our top three CMs in this regard.

Lanzini is better in possession, is quicker, is better at running with the ball and quickening our play and he is a far greater goal threat.

We need Lanzini MK 2.