Reece Oxford

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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby libero on Fri May 19, 2017 5:53 pm

I live in San Sebastian and have been a season ticket holder at Real Sociedad for decades now.

Real Sociedad arguably have the best youth team system in Europe and as an example, this season no fewer than 19 home grown players have played in La Liga for the club. Added to this mix there are some non home grown players - a Mexican, a Brazilian, an Argentinian and 4 Spanish (non local Basque players)

La Real tend to loan out a few players every season, but rarely more than 4, preferring to keep promising home grown talent around the first team, with first team coaches, first team players - preferring to give them their debuts young: Antoine Griezemann, Asier Illarramendi and Xabi Alonso both debuted in their teens and had racked up 100 matches in their (very) early 20s

And how does that work for the club? Well, they haven't won the league since 1982, but often qualify for the Europe and regularly finish around 8th in La Liga. This season they'll finish 5th-7th depending on the last matches next Sunday and will qualify for the Europa League. People in the city feel pleased with the way the club is run, and enjoy the local feel of the team and the sprinkling of overseas exoticness

Cullen, Oxford, Burke, Quina, Martinez and Rice would have already played for the first team here (if good enough) long before going out on loan because (and I know this first hand) the club firmly believes that their coaches are better than lower league coaches and that training with them and the first team squad develops young players much better

West Ham could look at this way of doing things rather than dispatching young talents off to lower league clubs with dubious coaching methods. Oxford, Burke and Quina should have played against Liverpool and Burnley and Martinez would have been better off at West Ham rather than at Oxford

When Bilic brought on Snodgrass against Liverpool in the 77th minute with the score at 0-4, it was clear that Slaven Bilic has no interest whatsoever in developing West Ham's youth system. Why not give Quina or Rice a chance of some minutes in a match that was already lost? Why give 13 minutes to an absolute disgrace of a "professional" when a couple of youth players were available - for whom a debut would have been so important? Why? Because, like Allardyce before him, Bilic has no interest in developing our young players - as seen by the fact that he hardly ever watches the U-21s

A change of philosophy is needed at West Ham if players like Reece Oxford, Josh Cullen or Reece Burke are to have any future at the club. And a club that develops home grown players and finishes 7th or 8th with occasional European forays is a lot more satisfying than the ridiculous mish mash we have now
:crest:
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby peter49uk on Fri May 19, 2017 6:02 pm

^^^^^ Top post libero could not agree more with you :thup:
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby rhysvol1995 on Fri May 19, 2017 6:22 pm

libero wrote: Why not give Quina or Rice a chance of some minutes in a match that was already lost? Why give 13 minutes to an absolute disgrace of a "professional" when a couple of youth players were available - for whom a debut would have been so important? Why? Because, like Allardyce before him, Bilic has no interest in developing our young players - as seen by the fact that he hardly ever watches the U-21s


I thought this was a good post until you called Snodgrass a "disgrace of a professional". Any rationale behind that? Ok, granted his performances haven't been up to his Hull standards since joining the club, but it's always difficult joining a club half way through the season and he's been no worse than most. He comes across a nice guy and a good professional.
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby MB on Fri May 19, 2017 7:20 pm

rhysvol1995 wrote:]

I thought this was a good post until you called Snodgrass a "disgrace of a professional". Any rationale behind that? Ok, granted his performances haven't been up to his Hull standards since joining the club, but it's always difficult joining a club half way through the season and he's been no worse than most. He comes across a nice guy and a good professional.


... as long as he gets to take the corners and free kicks!
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby westham,eggyandchips on Fri May 19, 2017 7:36 pm

libero wrote:
like Allardyce before him, Bilic has no interest in developing our young players - as seen by the fact that he hardly ever watches the U-21s

A change of philosophy is needed at West Ham if players like Reece Oxford, Josh Cullen or Reece Burke are to have any future at the club. And a club that develops home grown players and finishes 7th or 8th with occasional European forays is a lot more satisfying than the ridiculous mish mash we have now

Is it a coincidence our last two managers have such a similar philosophy on youth development?

IIRC the average Prem manager has a shelf life of about 18 months per club he's at. So what chance has he got of really developing youth, when all that's important to fans and its owners are getting results on the pitch or they're sacked.

I'd love to see young players come through, but reality is, the manager isn't given the proper amount of time to structure youth development the way he'd probably like. They want the finished article and if that means paying millions of £ then so be it.
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby ched on Fri May 19, 2017 9:28 pm

Great thoughts libero. And also a great answer from WE.I think that is spot on.
Premier league is not la primera.
Teams even sitting in middle of la primera dont have the funds to buy in big and have to rely on youth development.
And that is completely fine because 15 other teams in the league also have to rely on youth and cheaper investments.
Managers get much more time in la primera; in PL you have one season at a time and dont have the time to develop youth, at least that's the case for most teams.
You could easy switch Bilic with the Sociedad manager, and the difference will not be there, Bilic would continue develop youth there, while the Real manager here would buy in to survive the business.

Basically Bilic has done his job, he has over 2 seasons brought West Ham where we are supposed to be given quality of the players, the owners, and the stadium.
There is no managerial genius able to get this team into top 6 every season.
We cant compare us to top 6 in terms of stadium, players, owners. A manager wont change that.
Its caused by a gradual improvement in all those areas.
Unfortunately, as Bilic is performing well, we are not performing well in terms of player recruitment, owners, stadium, atmosphere, and home field advantage.
All those have to click for the team to perfrom well.
It's easy at least 10 points the stadium has costed us and that would bring us quiet up the table.
Add to that what better owners and recruitment would do and we sit just outside the 6th.
Add to that if that was the case for 5+ years and we may end up a top 6 team.
Bilic is doing well, but a club is more than a single manager.
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby 1959 on Fri May 19, 2017 11:03 pm

One if those times you're both right - but I do think the two perspectives can by reconciled by the old saying of the exception proves the rule.

A year ago, Loftus Cheek was ahead of Dele Ali, but because Pochetino pushed him forward, Dele is now miles ahead.

Everton back John Stones and collected £50m as a consequence.

If Rice and Quina are good enough I'd hope Bilic gives them a chance - the problem is that if he doesn't, we'll probably never know if it was because he played safe or because they weren't quite good enough.....
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby Yea Why Not on Sat May 20, 2017 3:39 am

Cheek and Ali both play midfield though. Oxford is an 18 year old centre half. That's incredibly young for a player in that particular position. I don't see what the panic is for to be honest

Stones hadn't kicked a Premier League ball when he was Oxford's age
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby libero on Sat May 20, 2017 11:23 am

Some good answers to my post here, especially from Ched and Eggy

And Rhys, yes, I think calling Snodgrass a "disgrace" was slightly over the top,
but comes from my frustration with him - I posted on here back in January that I
thought he'd be an excellent signing and his contribution and attitude are the very
polar opposite of what I expected from him

Ched makes a good point about money being at the root of it all.
You are right to a large extent, but not in every case. It is true that most
clubs in La Liga have substantially less money than comparitive clubs
in the EPL, and that clearly contributes to these clubs recruiting closer to
home and through their youth policies

But some very well run clubs also choose to develop local players rather than parachuting
in disaffected, over paid and often useless foreigners. It is was is often described over here
as "the philosophy of the club" Living in San Sebastian, being involved with youth football
(through my sons) and sometimes working with Real Sociedad has let me see that "philosophy"
at close hand and understand what it means for the people of the city

And here's the thing: when I first came here, I used to tell the locals that I supported a club just
like La Real in England - West Ham. Because I really did see very close parallels between the
two clubs - especially in the "Academy" at West Ham and "La Cantera" at Sociedad.
Favourite players over the years and back in the past were local, lived in the area, understood
and lived with the fans. Here you still see the players around the city - my youngest son
had his haircut next to Xabi Alonso a few weeks back and that kind of thing creates a bond between
the players and the community

And that has been kept alive here, but sadly, I think, much less so at West Ham. The other day
we started a match (at Stoke was it?) without a single Englishman in the team. As Ched says - Eusebio
would adapt to WH and Bilic to RS - but David Moyse refused to and was a disaster

So I'm not saying WH should change its philosophy back to the old days and have a team full of local lads - that wouldn't work in the short run. But I do think that having the courage to blood our youngsters sooner would have hugely positive knock on effect at the club.

It would be great to see Rice, Oxford, Burke and Cullen playing tomorrow at Burnley, and they wouldn't do any worse than the likes of some of those who will turn out for the club
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby chuffster on Sat May 20, 2017 12:42 pm

David Gold‏Verified account @davidgold 1h1 hour ago
More
David Gold Retweeted Rob Robinson
I think we all have to except that it is extremely unlikely that a teenager will break into a PL team full of seasoned international. dg


Unbelievable comment!Must install confidence to our younger players.... :x
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby Puff Daddy on Sat May 20, 2017 12:52 pm

chuffster wrote:David Gold‏Verified account @davidgold 1h1 hour ago
More
David Gold Retweeted Rob Robinson
I think we all have to except that it is extremely unlikely that a teenager will break into a PL team full of seasoned international. dg


Unbelievable comment!Must install confidence to our younger players.... :x



Make him right though, so why I wonder, did they not sell him to Man City when they were sniffing around him ? I suspect the answer to that is, even though we can't yet quite see his potential, the fact they were prepared to pay that amount of money for him convinced the owners he must have something we cannot see. So best we keep hold of him
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby Hatcham Iron on Sat May 20, 2017 1:04 pm

libero wrote:I live in San Sebastian and have been a season ticket holder at Real Sociedad for decades now.

Real Sociedad arguably have the best youth team system in Europe and as an example, this season no fewer than 19 home grown players have played in La Liga for the club. Added to this mix there are some non home grown players - a Mexican, a Brazilian, an Argentinian and 4 Spanish (non local Basque players)

La Real tend to loan out a few players every season, but rarely more than 4, preferring to keep promising home grown talent around the first team, with first team coaches, first team players - preferring to give them their debuts young: Antoine Griezemann, Asier Illarramendi and Xabi Alonso both debuted in their teens and had racked up 100 matches in their (very) early 20s

And how does that work for the club? Well, they haven't won the league since 1982, but often qualify for the Europe and regularly finish around 8th in La Liga. This season they'll finish 5th-7th depending on the last matches next Sunday and will qualify for the Europa League. People in the city feel pleased with the way the club is run, and enjoy the local feel of the team and the sprinkling of overseas exoticness

Cullen, Oxford, Burke, Quina, Martinez and Rice would have already played for the first team here (if good enough) long before going out on loan because (and I know this first hand) the club firmly believes that their coaches are better than lower league coaches and that training with them and the first team squad develops young players much better

West Ham could look at this way of doing things rather than dispatching young talents off to lower league clubs with dubious coaching methods. Oxford, Burke and Quina should have played against Liverpool and Burnley and Martinez would have been better off at West Ham rather than at Oxford

When Bilic brought on Snodgrass against Liverpool in the 77th minute with the score at 0-4, it was clear that Slaven Bilic has no interest whatsoever in developing West Ham's youth system. Why not give Quina or Rice a chance of some minutes in a match that was already lost? Why give 13 minutes to an absolute disgrace of a "professional" when a couple of youth players were available - for whom a debut would have been so important? Why? Because, like Allardyce before him, Bilic has no interest in developing our young players - as seen by the fact that he hardly ever watches the U-21s

A change of philosophy is needed at West Ham if players like Reece Oxford, Josh Cullen or Reece Burke are to have any future at the club. And a club that develops home grown players and finishes 7th or 8th with occasional European forays is a lot more satisfying than the ridiculous mish mash we have now
:crest:

Totaly agree we need to to blood more of our young players if their good enough they are old enough its the only way.We are a premier league club when they get to twenty they need premier standard foot ball the lower leagues with respect are no yardstick for assesing players when they get to twenty,they need a run out in the first team especialy at the end of the season if there is nothing to play forin my book thats the yardstick we as a club need to be looking at .
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby Kludgehammer on Sat May 20, 2017 1:09 pm

Hatcham Iron wrote:Totaly agree we need to to blood more of our young players if their good enough they are old enough its the only way.


That's the crux though, isn't it - are they actually good enough yet?

Burke had a great season at CB for Bradford, and probably would have done the same this season in the Champs if he hadn't been injured - I would have expected him to step up next year or the year after and take Ginge's place as 4th choice CB.

Cullen has been head and shoulders above for Bradford by all accounts - a potential Noble replacement in the making, but hasn't shown it above L1 level - needs a loan in the Champs or lower Prem to test him.

Oxford is nowhere near ready to play CB in the prem, IMHO. He's too lightweight physically and not positionally or situationally alert enough, which will hopefully come with experience playing against better strikers. He needs a full playing season at Champs level to develop - he would be ripped apart by better strikers in the Prem.
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby Johnny Byrne's Boots on Sat May 20, 2017 1:33 pm

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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby PrinceH on Sat May 20, 2017 1:42 pm

Kludgehammer wrote:Cullen has been head and shoulders above for Bradford by all accounts - a potential Noble replacement in the making, but hasn't shown it above L1 level - needs a loan in the Champs or lower Prem to test him.


Lower prem? Well that's us then.... (and if not, I'd much rather have him to test and train and eventually play with us than say... Swansea)
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby libero on Sat May 20, 2017 1:55 pm

Kludgehammer wrote:
Burke had a great season at CB for Bradford, and probably would have done the same this season in the Champs if he hadn't been injured - I would have expected him to step up next year or the year after and take Ginge's place as 4th choice CB.

Cullen has been head and shoulders above for Bradford by all accounts - a potential Noble replacement in the making, but hasn't shown it above L1 level - needs a loan in the Champs or lower Prem to test him.

Oxford is nowhere near ready to play CB in the prem, IMHO. He's too lightweight physically and not positionally or situationally alert enough, which will hopefully come with experience playing against better strikers. He needs a full playing season at Champs level to develop - he would be ripped apart by better strikers in the Prem.


Unless I'm very much mistaken, very few of us on here have seen enough of these 3 players (6 if we include Rice, Quina and Martinez) so I'm not sure if what you are saying is strictly true - might be might not.

The point of having them around our club rather than off on loan is that in this way, you ease them into PL football and you can guage their level. Occasional sub appearences, 15 mins here and there. That's what we used to do with the likes of Brooking, Frank Lampard Sr,, McDowell and so on. Oxford has wasted an entire year - 2 if you count the pervious season - when he would have been better off playing with our U21s, with our coaches and with our first team players in training

Cullen and Burke have probably benefitted more from their loan spells that Oxford, but right now is the time to get them into a position in which that can be eased into first team minutes
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby Jumby on Sat May 20, 2017 1:56 pm

We haven't got a team full of seasoned internationals.

David Gold is a bellend.

Top post, Libero, btw ;)
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby Wilko1304 on Sat May 20, 2017 2:19 pm

I don't like our board, but Gold is right: it does need to be accepted that it's hard for a youngster to get minutes in a squad full of experienced and successful players.

The Snodgrass one is a good example. Think about the player himself, struggling to make an impact in a new team, unhappy with his own input and still a relatively new signing. He wants the chance to make an impression at any opportunity - the likelihood that those 13 minutes are more beneficial to him than a Quina or Rice. They ain't learning a lot in 13 mins of a game where we've lost all discipline and are getting battered. Whereas Snodgrass can feel better for not only getting on the pitch and feeling like one of the manager's options, but also a chance to play more with his teammates, possibly do something positive and also not feel like he's losing his place in the pecking order to the point getting a kid some minutes is better than playing him
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby libero on Sat May 20, 2017 3:00 pm

I'm not sure I've seen anything in Snodgrass's body language, effort, work rate or contribution in 6 months at the club to back up what you claim he is thinking Wilko. You might be right but I can't see it

What I see when I watch him on the pitch is an unfit, lazy waste of time who has signed the contract that guarantees his future and has no need to make any effort for the mugs paying his wages. And he confirms this week in week out by not even breaking a sweat every time he has played for West Ham. But then, I might be wrong too

That's why I would have put Quina or Rice on for those 13 minutes against Liverpool. Putting on a player you know will make absolutely no effort is an insult to the fans - and the same goes for the Burnley match tomorrow
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Re: Reece Oxford

Postby Wilko1304 on Sat May 20, 2017 3:30 pm

I can think of three examples:

The Southampton (I think) game where he was praised for his work-rate up top alone
The sheer frustration when he was substituted in a recent game where he looked furious with himself
A few anecdotes from fans of his demeanour with them, including a real effort during the lap of honour to interact.

I think you've got blinkers on. His problem has been he's played s***, but that happens
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