West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby e17 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:11 pm

Iron-worx wrote:Nineteen surrenders in just 18 months...

Only the one.

We lost seventeen in under 12 months during Allardyce's last season. Including 4-0 in the cup to WBA, by 3 to Palace, Southampton and Arsenal, and getting knocked out of the LC to Sheffield Utd.

and that's just me picking one season in comparison.

Does it only count if we lost by 4?
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:13 pm

taffhammer wrote:
Quick question for you, theres no point in debating wether he had to go or not ,he did. But if he had become that bad in recent times and yet still has our highest points ratio of any of our managers in the prem, can you see a link to Bilic being a very good manager early doors and wonder what might have happend had they backed him to the hilt ?
I think he's a very estute man who realised what was going on with our cheapskate owners and gave up, just going through the motions till they had to pay him off. They couldn't even do that right, stringing it out just incase we got better.

Good post Taff.

And much the same could be said of Alardyce too. We'll see how Moyes (with his six month contract/ get out clause feels IF he is not supported by the board in January/ starts to read stories that he has been supported up to the hilt but we need to move on) reacts if/ when he starts to feel the same.

I do also wonder whether this (I'm told good) squad also has a fair percentage of players who to all intents and purposes are also de-motivated and will retain a fair degree of that demotivation regardless of how super fit we are pummelled into understanding that they will now become.
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby Burnley Hammer on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:14 pm

Equating one managers crap season with another managers crap season doesn't prove anything other than they were both crap, surely?
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby Doc H Ball on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:23 pm

Given Slav's incompetence and lack of any squad training in comparison to Sam's competence and rigorous training, how do we explain an away record about 30% the better?

The problem has been home form these last 18 months. Wonder what happened to influence that?
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby The Old Man of Storr on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:26 pm

Allardyce and Bilic had both been beaten down by the time they left , there's no point comparing how their West Ham careers ended to the beginning of Moyes' career with us . Like Allardyce and Bilic before him Moyes has something to prove and if his beginnings go to match that of his predecessors at West Ham he'll be a hit .
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:28 pm

It's a shame that people are going through Slav v Sam arguments.

IF both managers were crap then that reflects on those who couldn't attract any better. If, as I suspect both were decent albeit in different ways, why did two very different men with very different characters and methods come to both look crap by the ends of their tenure?
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby Burnley Hammer on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:31 pm

DaveWHU1964 wrote:It's a shame that people are going through Slav v Sam arguments.

IF both managers were crap then that reflects on those who couldn't attract any better. If, as I suspect both were decent albeit in different ways, why did two very different men with very different characters and methods come to both look crap by the ends of their tenure?


There's only one constant. As I said on the Moyes thread, it shouldn't be about Allardyce vs Bilic, or Bilic vs Moyes.

Excuse my comment further up the page by the way, I was being facetious
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby Colours never run on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:33 pm

e17 wrote:We lost seventeen in under 12 months during Allardyce's last season. Including 4-0 in the cup to WBA, by 3 to Palace, Southampton and Arsenal, and getting knocked out of the LC to Sheffield Utd.

and that's just me picking one season in comparison.

Does it only count if we lost by 4?



I thought Forest and Man City agg of 9 goals were my particular favourites.
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby Colours never run on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:39 pm

Doc H Ball wrote:Given Slav's incompetence and lack of any squad training in comparison to Sam's competence and rigorous training, how do we explain an away record about 30% the better?

The problem has been home form these last 18 months. Wonder what happened to influence that?



Get with the programme Doc, its the double sessions thats whats done it. The Stadium is just a "convenient excuse" or however Lady Muck put it.
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby taffhammer on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:42 pm

Burnley Hammer wrote:Equating one managers crap season with another managers crap season doesn't prove anything other than they were both crap, surely?


I think you missed the crucial word ' became ' in there. Which is interesting because both managers appeared to go through the motions towards the end. I wonder why ? Makes you think some players are doing the same as well.
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:53 pm

Burnley Hammer wrote:There's only one constant. As I said on the Moyes thread, it shouldn't be about Allardyce vs Bilic, or Bilic vs Moyes.

Absolutely Burnley.

Seeing as that "one constant" are unlikely to change their MOs at this stage of their lives we're likely to see these arguments again starting with Moyes, albeit personally (and I hope I'm wrong) I think Moyes version 2017 isn't of the standard of Sam, circa 2012 or Slav three years later. I do wonder if too much of the footballing world has now cottoned onto the Daves and so their pulling power which was never as strong as they liked to make out is diminishing still further. Hence Moyes.
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby Iron-worx on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:01 pm

Burnley Hammer wrote:Equating one managers crap season with another managers crap season doesn't prove anything other than they were both crap, surely?


It hardly bigs up either of them no, in fact it agrees with my contention that the only one that I mentioned was crap.

It's an argument of others may have been as bad as Bilic :lol:
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby e17 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:02 pm

Just to clarify, I don't think Sam or Slav were crap.

In the last 30 years, we've had a few who were - Roeder, Zola & Grant - and a few who offered questionable entertainment - But those two were not crap.
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby e17 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:04 pm

Iron-worx wrote:It's an argument of others may have been as bad as Bilic :lol:

Who exactly was BETTER than Bilic then?

The stats suggest no one, even the goals for and against mark that out. Despite the 4-0 defeats?
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby taffhammer on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:05 pm

DaveWHU1964 wrote: I do wonder if too much of the footballing world has now cottoned onto the Daves and so their pulling power which was never as strong as they liked to make out is diminishing still further. Hence Moyes.


Exactly, no good manager is going to risk ending up not looking good so we have ended up with someone who's desperate for a good 6 months. Could work out great for us as he has to motivate the players he has or he'll never get a top job.
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby Gsbgsb on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:07 pm

It is not BFS v Bilic, that is like chalk and cheese in every respect, it is whether Bilic built on Sam.

West Ham fans require more than a functional winning team according to Allardyce and he is right, winning is not enough, the team need to win with style. We rarely had any style under him but we did have a discipline, fitness and organisation to make up for that. Far lesser players in terms of ability were set up to be more difficult to beat. Sam’s time was up contract notwithstanding, he had taken us as far as his own “limitations” and the attitude of the fans allowed. The foundations were built, ultimately for me Sam succeeded in his brief, get us back in the Premier and establish us there.

Bilic and Payet arrive and for a few months everything looks rosey, we are winning, seem resilient when Payet is out and have one of the most inform players in the league playing for us. Unfortunately the foundations were also being undermined, the organisation and fitness was not being maintained despite the better players arriving and a couple of the stars were to be a major factor in undermining the discipline. Whether it was broken promises, his head being turned or whatever Payet became disruptive at the same time Antonio had his RB moment.

I do not recall the pre-season so cannot remember how much he played at RB but surely he and Bilic must have talked at length about the switch, you do not tell a player to play a different position in the modern game without discussing his feelings towards it first. If he said to Bilic he did not feel comfortable with it or more did not want to play it then whilst his attempts stank he should never have been there in the first place. There is also s ton of difference between RB and RWB, especially when it comes to the defensive side of the game.

Whatever the reasons by midway at the latest of the second season everything had gone, the style, the discipline, the fitness and the organisation. The task therefore is to sort out the issues. This is where I believe Bilic like Allardyce’s time was up as it appears he has totally failed in this respect. Our fitness, organisation and discipline remain poor yet we are not playing stylish football either.

Whatever the style of play there is no excuse for players not being fit in my view. I do not expect a more attacking side to be as hard to break down etc but equally a good attacking side is still built around organised disciplined defending. Ultimately for me Bilic failed in his brief, maintain the established premiership side and improve on its style of play.
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby taffhammer on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:07 pm

Iron-worx wrote:It's an argument of others may have been as bad as Bilic :lol:


You didn't answer my question.
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:22 pm

Gsbgsb wrote:It is not BFS v Bilic, that is like chalk and cheese in every respect, it is whether Bilic built on Sam.

Forget Bilic for a minute - that's done and dusted. IF you've been right about Bilic then the blame surely lies with those who appointed him doesn't it? And do you think that they built on Sam?

West Ham fans require more than a functional winning team according to Allardyce and he is right, winning is not enough, the team need to win with style.

Then, again, IF you're right then that's categoric proof that whatever else they are the Daves are not West Ham fans as West Ham fans would never appoint such a manager, right?

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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby tizzwoz on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 pm

I think time will tell us just how bad Slav was as a manager. He dined off of Dimitri Payet and the romance of the last season at UP. Once Payet downed tools, Slav had no answer. Fans hatred of the owners deflected attention off Slav for a very long time. Im not even gonna talk about Bilic's lack of tactical nouse, or gameplans or training methods. We all watched the games, we know how bad we've been the last 18 months. But there are other issues which really are unforgivable. Individually, the examples below are not great... combined they are an absolute joke.

Zaza - An Italian international. Juventus sub. Bilic turned him into an absolute laughing stock by playing him up on his own in an unfamiliar role. Fast forward just a few months and the guy is 2nd top scorer in La Liga. Funny that

Victor Moses - Frustrating loanee. Never really found his position with us. Fast forward a few months and the guy is winning the title with Chelsea as a right wing back - A RIGHT WING BACK!!!!

Robert Snodgrass - He was an average-to-good player before he joined us. Never gonna replace Payet, but you would expect good delivery and effort from him. A few weeks with us and he looked like he never kicked a ball before.

Chico - At last a signing that universally every west ham fan applauded. The striker we've been waiting for., But wait. Slav then tells us that he cant play 2 up front and Chico gets binned out wide for several games.

Arnoutovic - Slavs legacy Arnie - at best an average-to-good player with the ability to excite on the odd occasion... at worst, a disruptive, lazy, liability. Yep. 25m. TWENTY FIVE MILLION. Of course, Slav doesn't set the price, but had our owners not have paid that money, we'd all be saying they didnt back him. When they did back him, he invariably got it horribly wrong.

Sakho - Arguably, when fit and mentally stable, our most reliable striker (goals wise). For whatever reason, he wants out. He tries to force through a transfer at the last minute and makes repeated press statements about wanting to leave. If this was any other player he'd never have worn the shirt again... But wait, there he is, still coming on as a sub, adding to an already volitile crowd atmosphere with fans not knowing whether to cheer or boo.

Martinez - Im not gonna hail Martinez. Hes raw, untested and his career can go either way at this time. But give the guy a chance. Why persist with Sakho as a sub. Youve got one player who is desperate to prove himself while the other is desperate to be on the ferry to France.
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Re: West Ham United sack Slaven Bilic

Postby Colours never run on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:32 pm

e17 wrote:Just to clarify, I don't think Sam or Slav were crap.

In the last 30 years, we've had a few who were - Roeder, Zola & Grant - and a few who offered questionable entertainment - But those two were not crap.



100% spot on.
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