Youth development

Does exactly what it says on the tin - the forum for football-related discussion.

Moderators: bristolhammerfc, sicknote, -DL-, Rio, Gnome, chalks, the pink palermo

Youth development

Postby Hamburger on Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:39 pm

.
Read the statement in the article about poor Samuelson on C & H, completely demoralised and totally lost his confidence sitting on the bench for the mighty Blackburn. He was a regular for his international squad and now they are not interested, no wonder he is pissed off. I read last year that he was told not to dribble past players but to play the safe ball, what kind of coaching is that? Our youth dev system sucks, how many have had a chance with all our injuries?!?!? It would also have allowed Bilic to keep players in their proper positions rather than playing square pegs in round holes which has been a big part of our problem this season. We've had so many injuries, we could have tried a couple of the youngsters to give the dev team some motivation rather than having the prospect of being farmed out to a low league team to get hacked in front of a crowd of 300. Oxford was on the bench again at Reading, what's the point of farming them out if they don't get game time? Better off playing regularly in the dev squad surely?!?
.
.
User avatar
Hamburger
 
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:59 pm
Location: Sidcup

Re: Youth development

Postby Up the Junction on Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:32 pm

If they can't get a game at Blackburn, why would Bilic offer them a position in a Premier League side? If they're good enough, they generally play. If they don't it's probably not because of some devious plan to deny West Ham the use of their star youngsters.

That said - and as has been mentioned several times - managers generally don't remain at a club for long enough to need to blood and develop young players. There simply is no reason to currently, unless you're a Wenger or a Ferguson.
User avatar
Up the Junction
Thinks he owns the place
 
Posts: 48401
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:03 am

Re: Youth development

Postby fmgod on Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:36 pm

Up the Junction wrote:If they can't get a game at Blackburn, why would Bilic offer them a position in a Premier League side? If they're good enough, they generally play. If they don't it's probably not because of some devious plan to deny West Ham the use of their star youngsters.

That said - and as has been mentioned several times - managers generally don't remain at a club for long enough to need to blood and develop young players. There simply is no reason to currently, unless you're a Wenger or a Ferguson.


Totally agree with the first point, if they're good enough they'll play but when half of them are struggling to play for the sides they are on loan for, how on earth can they start in this league.
fmgod
 
Posts: 11950
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:54 pm

Re: Youth development

Postby Rio on Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Hamburger wrote:.
Read the statement in the article about poor Samuelson on C & H, completely demoralised and totally lost his confidence sitting on the bench for the mighty Blackburn. He was a regular for his international squad and now they are not interested, no wonder he is pissed off. I read last year that he was told not to dribble past players but to play the safe ball, what kind of coaching is that? Our youth dev system sucks, how many have had a chance with all our injuries?!?!? It would also have allowed Bilic to keep players in their proper positions rather than playing square pegs in round holes which has been a big part of our problem this season. We've had so many injuries, we could have tried a couple of the youngsters to give the dev team some motivation rather than having the prospect of being farmed out to a low league team to get hacked in front of a crowd of 300. Oxford was on the bench again at Reading, what's the point of farming them out if they don't get game time? Better off playing regularly in the dev squad surely?!?
.
.



The point of farming them out is a test of not only ability, but also character.

Sadly there's a lot of rose tinted spectacles being worn when it comes to our youngsters. The truth is that by and large they aren't good enough. Throwing them in at the top level could damage not only their careers but the clubs position.
User avatar
Rio
Ronnie Biggs was here
 
Posts: 22697
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 2:29 pm
Location: Reykjavik comma Iceland full stop

Re: Youth development

Postby Colours never run on Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:53 pm

Up the Junction wrote:If they can't get a game at Blackburn, why would Bilic offer them a position in a Premier League side? If they're good enough, they generally play. If they don't it's probably not because of some devious plan to deny West Ham the use of their star youngsters.

That said - and as has been mentioned several times - managers generally don't remain at a club for long enough to need to blood and develop young players. There simply is no reason to currently, unless you're a Wenger or a Ferguson.



Saved me having to write it. Exactly that. I'm one of those not so desperate to push youngsters into the big time until they're ready and more importantly good enough. I have high hopes for about a handful of our 'kids' it's all about timing and if they're the quality we need. Some of them, their time will come, Oxford in particular.

The Clubs usually got a decent track record of sorting out the wheat from the chaff and if they do decide to let them go it's usually for the right reasons because they weren't good enough anytime soon for us in this League.
User avatar
Colours never run
 
Posts: 8185
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:46 am
Location: "Be in no doubt, we are part of the most successful stadium migration in history"

Re: Youth development

Postby Up the Junction on Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:38 pm

In the last 40-odd years, Ray Houghton, Matt Holland & Jimmy Bullard are the only three players I can think of off the top of my head that we've let go as kids who've subsequently gone on to enjoy reasonably-lengthy success in the top flight* - but only one of those (Houghton) spent the best years of his career in it.

There's many other who've played bit parts - Junior Stanislas, Richard Garcia when he was at Hull, for example - but our record is pretty damn good on determining whether a youngster is likely to break through.

*Kenny Dalglish and Andriy Shevchenko not included!
User avatar
Up the Junction
Thinks he owns the place
 
Posts: 48401
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:03 am

Re: Youth development

Postby Estuary on Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:16 pm

Up the Junction wrote:In the last 40-odd years, Ray Houghton, Matt Holland & Jimmy Bullard are the only three players I can think of off the top of my head that we've let go as kids who've subsequently gone on to enjoy reasonably-lengthy success in the top flight* - but only one of those (Houghton) spent the best years of his career in it.

There's many other who've played bit parts - Junior Stanislas, Richard Garcia when he was at Hull, for example - but our record is pretty damn good on determining whether a youngster is likely to break through.

*Kenny Dalglish and Andriy Shevchenko not included!


Bobby Z? JT?
User avatar
Estuary
 
Posts: 3192
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:40 pm

Re: Youth development

Postby YorksHammer on Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:33 pm

Thing is, there aren't a great number of youngsters playing in the Premier League right now. I think there was a stat that six clubs didn't even play a teenager in the league last season.

I think there are only something like three teenagers who have over 1000 minutes of Premier League football this season - Marcus Rashford, Tom Davies, and Mason Holgate.

Young players, and especially teenagers, don't get played in the Premier League unless they're some megabucks signing or undoubtedly quality. We don't have either of those.
YorksHammer
 
Posts: 2524
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Youth development

Postby Exiledin cardiff on Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:46 pm

I just wonder how many of our Dev players have come from local schools football?
Does Newham still have a district team likewise Barking Dagenham, Then there were county schools sides. I can remember one of my class mates attending West ham sessions after being seen for his primary school by Wally St Pier, and going on to make regular first team appearances. He also played in the same district team with Curbs.
There is another question do we have scouts like the late Wally who took the time to check out local kids. I can understand that money is the guiding light in the modern game, and we can spend £ Millions developing kids and buying them in, but is there no place for the local kids to get a chance.

We laud Noble for being a local lad did he come to us via Newham Schools football, if he did he must be one of the last.

I think we also miss out by not sending coaches into schools. My school had Roger Cross with Pat Holland two days a week. Just working with all the kids.

Maybe it's old hat but sometimes the old system works.
Exiledin cardiff
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:03 pm

Re: Youth development

Postby Up the Junction on Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:35 pm

Exiledin cardiff wrote:We laud Noble for being a local lad did he come to us via Newham Schools football, if he did he must be one of the last.

He came to us via Arsenal :)
User avatar
Up the Junction
Thinks he owns the place
 
Posts: 48401
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:03 am

Re: Youth development

Postby Boooogers! on Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:38 pm

I saw Samuelsen in preseason and he was completely ineffective against a bunch of second string Americans. Granted, the whole team were pony, but he looked a million miles away from being able to make the grade as a Premiership level footballer.
User avatar
Boooogers!
 
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:34 pm

Re: Youth development

Postby thejackhammer on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:09 pm

Two goals for Samuelsen tonight
User avatar
thejackhammer
 
Posts: 5645
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 11:49 pm

Re: Youth development

Postby Thekorean on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:25 pm

Off to the playoffs they go!
Thekorean
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:36 am
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Youth development

Postby Aztec Hammer on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:45 pm

Boooogers! wrote:I saw Samuelsen in preseason and he was completely ineffective against a bunch of second string Americans. Granted, the whole team were pony, but he looked a million miles away from being able to make the grade as a Premiership level footballer.


Yet he was the best player on the pitch by a mile in the FA Cup against West Brom.

Ups and downs, but I remember him doing things in that game where you could point it out and say not a lot of players had that natural body control and ability to go past players so easily with both feet.
User avatar
Aztec Hammer
 
Posts: 5295
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:44 pm

Re: Youth development

Postby MK Hammer 3 on Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:22 pm

Exiledin cardiff wrote:I just wonder how many of our Dev players have come from local schools football?
Does Newham still have a district team likewise Barking Dagenham, Then there were county schools sides. I can remember one of my class mates attending West ham sessions after being seen for his primary school by Wally St Pier, and going on to make regular first team appearances. He also played in the same district team with Curbs.
There is another question do we have scouts like the late Wally who took the time to check out local kids. I can understand that money is the guiding light in the modern game, and we can spend £ Millions developing kids and buying them in, but is there no place for the local kids to get a chance.

We laud Noble for being a local lad did he come to us via Newham Schools football, if he did he must be one of the last.

I think we also miss out by not sending coaches into schools. My school had Roger Cross with Pat Holland two days a week. Just working with all the kids.

Maybe it's old hat but sometimes the old system works.


Mine had Trevor Brooking, Pop Robson, Tommy Taylor and John Cushley (RIP). John C even took us for RE.
User avatar
MK Hammer 3
 
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:53 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Youth development

Postby Boooogers! on Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:57 pm

Aztec Hammer wrote:
Yet he was the best player on the pitch by a mile in the FA Cup against West Brom.

Ups and downs, but I remember him doing things in that game where you could point it out and say not a lot of players had that natural body control and ability to go past players so easily with both feet.


It's a funny old game isn't it?

Admittedly my views on Samuelsen are based entirely on one preseason performance!

Sounds like he has got bags of ability, but it's all for nothing if he can't impose himself on the pitch. I expect the club were hoping the physical side of his game would develop playing against lumps in the lower divisions...
User avatar
Boooogers!
 
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:34 pm

Re: Youth development

Postby Hamburger on Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:25 am

.
I really don't really agree with the 'if they are good enough they would play' statement and I don't see why their character needs testing, some people will always be mentally stronger than others, that's about man management skills. If a talented prospect is not getting good service or support he will generally be dragged down to the level he is playing with and vica versa he'll be lifted and inspired with good players. With a striker it's slightly different, he has the opportunity to score individual goals but can still limited by poor service. How can one raw individual 'shine' in a team of 10 other than the odd occasions where he gets a chance to. It's like saying Deli Alli would have got Milton Keynes promoted all by himself when he was there, he was only able to show his real talent when he went to the Spuds. Likewise Kante has raised his game to a different level since moving to a top club and just to underline my point about Samuelson, he scored 2 tonight for U23 and was outstanding apparently, a week after he was on the bench for Blackburn.

Of course our youth have to show something to get noticed, my point is that it is extremely difficult to do in a bad low league team who can't help you to raise your standard and your envious team mates probably think you're a jumped up nancy. It's endemic, not enough youngsters get a chance in the PL because the stakes are too high to risk it, so 'experienced' foreigners are brought in - how do the youth get experience in the 1st team if they don't get game time?!? It's ruining the development of English talent and ultimately the quality of the national team. 34yo Defoe was our 'best' available striker in England's last match FFS.
.
User avatar
Hamburger
 
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:59 pm
Location: Sidcup

Re: Youth development

Postby Lil Joe 17 on Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:32 am

Ironically I think it's worth noting that the last time we properly gave youth a run out it was under Big Sam. What might have been relevant is that he was in his third year in charge, so he might have had a longer term view in mind.
User avatar
Lil Joe 17
 
Posts: 799
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Wellington, NZ

Re: Youth development

Postby m-h on Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:49 am

We did'nt have a single English player in our starting eleven versus Everton, which most on here said was one of our best performances of the season....

The Academy of Football.
User avatar
m-h
 
Posts: 5969
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: football is a simple game. The hard part is making it look simple

Re: Youth development

Postby TheHandOfDog on Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:24 am

Yeah, we aren't even the academy of the east end anymore. We don't give anyone a chance. Are we really saying that Tom Davies, Holding, Galloway, Pennington, Lookman, Calvert-lewin, Jack Stephens, Alexander-Arnold, Leko, Sam Field, Ben Woodburn, Joel Asoro, Josh Tymon, Maitland-Niles, Ovie Ejaria, Josh sims, Chilwell, Ola Aina, Aiden O'Neil are all better than all our youngsters? The answer is no. They all aren't but they have been given game time in first team games at some point this season.

We literally top the league in having the most injuries yet we haven't fielded one youngster. What motivation is there for the development squad and our future young players that we sign when it is very, very clear that they won't be given a sniff.

We need to stop calling West Ham the academy of football, we are actually the opposite.
User avatar
TheHandOfDog
 
Posts: 1040
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:08 pm

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bowltorious, brothernero, Colours never run, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Harry Hound, hessa, horsham_hammer, Johnny Byrne's Boots, OFT, spod, stouffer, WestHamByTheSea, Yahoo [Bot] and 68 guests