Youth development

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Re: Youth development

Postby sosc67 on Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:29 am

Was introduced to a man from Brentford's Academy today was in my area scouting players to bring into there system later this year.Very interesting his Opinion on where the game is heading should be heading in England and Australia.
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Re: Youth development

Postby Kialos on Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:37 pm

Sadly not very interesting for the rest of us if you don't actually mention any of those opinions.
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Re: Youth development

Postby Jayhammer on Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:48 pm

As a coach of a young team, I agree that in this county unless you are exceptional all the clubs are looking for is the fastest and biggest athletes. We played an u13 team from a pro club a couple of weeks ago and all but 2 or 3 them where taller than me. When you have got someone who is nearly 6 foot and can run like the wind what chance have you got? These things now come first over being a football player, where if you go to the Spain and Germany it's all about being a footballer first.
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Re: Youth development

Postby bubbles500 on Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:06 pm

I'd say unfortunately our owners seem to be in a similar mind set .They seem obsessed with fast physical players.Id say our only technically gifted players are lanzini and possibly fegol
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Re: Youth development

Postby fmgod on Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:33 am

Jayhammer wrote:As a coach of a young team, I agree that in this county unless you are exceptional all the clubs are looking for is the fastest and biggest athletes. We played an u13 team from a pro club a couple of weeks ago and all but 2 or 3 them where taller than me. When you have got someone who is nearly 6 foot and can run like the wind what chance have you got? These things now come first over being a football player, where if you go to the Spain and Germany it's all about being a footballer first.


Nail on the head, it's why England are good at youth level but once they get 23ish and everything levels out, the technical players are far better.
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Re: Youth development

Postby YorksHammer on Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:45 am

bubbles500 wrote:I'd say unfortunately our owners seem to be in a similar mind set .They seem obsessed with fast physical players.Id say our only technically gifted players are lanzini and possibly fegol


Interesting, because we basically only have Antonio who I would class as 'fast' in our team, and even that's using a very loose interpretation of the word.
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Re: Youth development

Postby Hamburger on Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:33 am

Jayhammer wrote:As a coach of a young team, I agree that in this county unless you are exceptional all the clubs are looking for is the fastest and biggest athletes. We played an u13 team from a pro club a couple of weeks ago and all but 2 or 3 them where taller than me. When you have got someone who is nearly 6 foot and can run like the wind what chance have you got? These things now come first over being a football player, where if you go to the Spain and Germany it's all about being a footballer first.


Absolutely right Jay and Fmgod. We are so far behind in coaching, relying on strength rather than skill. I wonder if Messi would ever have made it from youth level here having been lambasted on so many occasions for dribbling and told not to go through the middle but pass to the wings for crossing and then of course he would have been to short to head the ball ! I don't think a young Lanzini would have been allowed to play in case he got hurt ! Silly examples but you get my point.

Even now many English clubs are constantly looking for 'wingers' but it is interesting that successful clubs like Chelsea, City and Arsenal don't have 2 wingers in the true sense of the word and prefer a more direct, on the ground style. There was a Barcelona match last season where the stats showed they did not make one single cross in the air, not one - an impossibility in the English league game. It's sometimes almost as if we can't be bothered to play football but rely on crosses. I'm afraid it's still brawn over brains for English coaches.

So it's no wonder we import so many players who have been taught ball skills because our boys certainly have not, unless you think feebly running a ball round a line of markers counts.
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Re: Youth development

Postby spod on Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:56 am

I'm completely against B teams, but I do see the logic of them in terms of developing players in the way a club wants to. What I'd like to see as a compromise is loaning three or four players to the same club, and giving them a coach or two on secondment too, to make sure they kids are getting the right education.
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Re: Youth development

Postby BrownFatwa on Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:53 pm

i know someone quite well in the Brentford set-up.
basically the owner is very forward thinking in terms of use of data and analysis and sports science and got increasingly pissed off that they were losing youngsters who they had nurtured for up to 10 years in their academy to the big(ger) clubs for peanuts when they got to professional contract age. So he closed the academy having put in place an international network of scouts using a centrally refined computer model to 'score' players. The focus was on 18-23 year olds that could go straight into their U23 squad, the younger ones often loaned back or out. So a reserve team basically from players scouted around the world - Europe especially - and very often included those not quite good enough to make it at the top European clubs or in the younger age bracket to the top European clubs. More cost effective they reckon to have a run an U23 team of professionals than run an academy that often sees the cream poached before the club get 'value' from them. The Spanish lad Joda (sic) that we have allegedly looked at came this way. They rate him highly and but for missing a season or so for 'personal' reasons' (he was sent back to Spain on loan for season) reckon he'd be playing in Prem by now.
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Re: Youth development

Postby vaz te's bonnet on Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:59 pm

I often wonder about the coaching given by clubs to youths in the premier league. You often hear now about how Germany develop their kids and unique training methods. Have we started to hire(or even thought about) a few german coaches who follow that philosophy or a couple of foreign coaches who follow different philosophies.
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Re: Youth development

Postby bobd_uk on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:13 am

bubbles500 wrote:I'd say unfortunately our owners seem to be in a similar mind set .They seem obsessed with fast physical players.Id say our only technically gifted players are lanzini and possibly fegol


Name 3 first team players at WH who are fast and physical. Bet you can't.
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Re: Youth development

Postby bubbles500 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:35 am

Name 3 first team players at WH who are fast and physical. Bet you can't.[/quote]

Antonio masuaka ogbonna kouyate .All over 75 pace on FIFA which is how we prob scout players,kouyate lowest at 77.Id consider them all physically strong types who perhaps are technically not the best.Still not seen enough of masuaka to judge him technically
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Re: Youth development

Postby bobd_uk on Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:41 am

bubbles500 wrote: Antonio masuaka ogbonna kouyate .All over 75 pace on FIFA which is how we prob scout players,kouyate lowest at 77.Id consider them all physically strong types who perhaps are technically not the best.Still not seen enough of masuaka to judge him technically


"On FIFA" kind of negates the argument. I would agree on Antonio. Ogbonna and Kouyate are not fast. Masuaku is not physical.
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Re: Youth development

Postby bubbles500 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:51 am

You'd already made your mind up before I answeered.FIFA is probably best indication of player pace.For me Antonio is very fast,ogbonna and kouyate are fast.And from what I saw mas can look after himself.I think the point is the majority of are targets don't seem to be the most technically proficient.
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Re: Youth development

Postby Patito on Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:55 am

bubbles500 wrote:I'd say unfortunately our owners seem to be in a similar mind set .They seem obsessed with fast physical players.Id say our only technically gifted players are lanzini and possibly fegol



Every ****ing thread :asleep:
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Re: Youth development

Postby Nesticles on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:08 pm

bubbles500 wrote:FIFA is probably best indication of player pace.


I see someone is ITK of the West Ham scouting system
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Re: Youth development

Postby YorksHammer on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:34 pm

Appreciate we're off topic here, but...

Pace is hard to measure given that there are all sorts of factors to count in - initial speed, top speed, and so on. A fast starting speed helps a player to actually look fast. Largely speaking, the fastest player at every club levels out in a brack between 34 and 36 kph. The Mirror posted some Opta stats on this in February of this year. Our fastest five were the following:

Michail Antonio, 34.74
Cheikhou Kouyaté, 34.27
Mark Noble, 34.08
Simone Zaza, 33.98
Håvard Nordtveit, 33.51

Given how some view our third, fourth, and fifth fastest players (at that point) as slow, it suggests there are a lot more factors to consider for what really consitutes 'fast' in some people's eye.

Out of the whole Premier League, there were not many clubs with two players or more below 34kph in their top five fastest - Swansea, Stoke (who had 3), Southampton, Middlesbrough (3 again), Manchester United, Hull (all five), Burnley (3). Very few had more than one or two slower than Kouyate, our second fastest. All in all it adds up to us not having especially fast players relative to other teams.

Only Neil Taylor, Giannelli Imbula, Stephen Ward, Matthew Lowton, and four of the Hull players (Curtis Davies, Abel Hernández, Sam Clucas, Ahmed Elmohamady) were slower than Nordtveit and still in their club's top five fastest players.

Shane Long was the fastest player in the league at that point, by the way.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/ ... ch-9746955"
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Re: Youth development

Postby The Sherriff on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:48 pm

Our manager has a year left on his contract, why on earth would he experiment or gamble on younger players. His situation doesn’t lend itself to player development.
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Re: Youth development

Postby bobd_uk on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:56 pm

The Sherriff wrote:Our manager has a year left on his contract, why on earth would he experiment or gamble on younger players. His situation doesn’t lend itself to player development.


This is very true. He's not going to risk his job in order to give someone else a long term benefit. We didn't even have that many successful loaned players last season for him to get excited about. Cullen is the only one who was a definite success isn't he? Burke did ok. Martinez, Dobson, Samuelsen, etc. all struggled to even get a game.
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Re: Youth development

Postby bubbles500 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:05 pm

Cheers for mirror article very interesting.Hard to believe anyone is faster than traore he certainly looks fastest with naked eye.
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