Youth development

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Re: Youth development

Postby Hamburger on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:40 pm

Danny's Dyer Acting wrote:We've got 3 massively experienced centre backs fighting to be first choice plus a capable back up plus a central midfielder with almost 100 games in defence for a CL regular plus an 18 year old getting rave reviews plus a right back that can slot in to a 3 if we change formation.

Maybe we use that depth to give a couple of guys the chance to go get regular football at a higher level than they've ever played before?

What? We've already done that?


Not so good against the mighty Altona. Maybe they'll do better against lowly Man City?
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Re: Youth development

Postby bubbles500 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:41 pm

Our 2 first choice CB are 29.Reid has missed 3 months in 3 of last 4 seasons and last season a month,he will get injured at some point.Ogbonna is coming off back of 6 months out with a knee injury,hopefully he will hold up.Fonte/ginge both 33 thought of them together against pacey prem attacks is terrifying.You really can't hang your hat on Rice yes looks promising but that's it right now.And no way should we be counting on kouyatte to fill in.For me we defo should have kept Oxford over Rice at least he has some Prem experience and for me is the more promising talent.An early injury to Reid or Ogbonna and we will start looking very exposed at CB.
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Re: Youth development

Postby Danny's Dyer Acting on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:48 pm

I genuinely couldn't give two shiny shites about how many goals we concede against Altonaer or City or the Dog and Duck Disabled Pensioners XI in a pre season game, so you'll forgive me for not using those games to make judgements on players with god knows how many professional appearances in the bank.

Keeping Oxford and Burke as 5th/6th/7th choices would do more harm than good to their development at this stage. Far better to send them to clubs that will give them more playing time. In the case of Rice, at 18 I think it's perfectly fine for him to fill the role Oxford did in 15/16 and get 5-10 appearances while working with the first team squad on a daily basis.
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Re: Youth development

Postby bobd_uk on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:44 pm

Danny's Dyer Acting wrote:Keeping Oxford and Burke as 5th/6th/7th choices would do more harm than good to their development at this stage.


And that is exactly the point. This thread is called "youth development". Players don't develop by being squad members and unused subs. They'll learn far more playing regularly, even at a lower level. We've obviously loaned Burke & Cullen on 5 month deals in order that we can change things up in Jan if they're not playing. If they get regular games (and we're not injury ravaged) then I'd expect to see it all renewed till May.
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Re: Youth development

Postby YorksHammer on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:04 pm

bubbles500 wrote:And no way should we be counting on kouyatte to fill in.


You're right, we shouldn't - he should be one of the starting 2/3.

I've enjoyed watching Rice recently - seems to have a wise head on his shoulders, a good sense of anticipation, and a strong tackle to him. Hopefully we see more of him this season.

Martinez I think is proving that he could be a good part of our first team squad too - his two finishes in pre-season have been class and show that he could work for us leading the line.

Less sure about Holland and Makasi, the other two youngsters I think we've used this summer - expect they'll go on loan somewhere.

Cullen and Burke go out and get some Championship experience, Oxford with a Bundesliga side - pretty good idea, all told.

I do wonder about Quina - not involved at all in the pre-season games (presumably due to the U19s?). I think we probably want to keep him around the first team squad and maybe give him minutes this season if we can, to see how his obvious ability translates to the PL and also to show him that we have faith in him and his development.
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Re: Youth development

Postby DDHammer on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:11 pm

YorksHammer wrote:You're right, we shouldn't - he should be one of the starting 2/3.


129 career games at CB, 104 at DM.

Rarely see him have a bad game at CB for us when needed, couple of MoTM performances as well.
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Re: Youth development

Postby continental skills on Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:15 pm

[quote="YorksHammer"

I've enjoyed watching Rice recently - seems to have a wise head on his shoulders, a good sense of anticipation, and a strong tackle to him. Hopefully we see more of him this season.

Martinez I think is proving that he could be a good part of our first team squad too - his two finishes in pre-season have been class and show that he could work for us leading the line.

Less sure about Holland and Makasi, the other two youngsters I think we've used this summer - expect they'll go on loan somewhere.

Cullen and Burke go out and get some Championship experience, Oxford with a Bundesliga side - pretty good idea, all told.

I do wonder about Quina - not involved at all in the pre-season games (presumably due to the U19s?). I think we probably want to keep him around the first team squad and maybe give him minutes this season if we can, to see how his obvious ability translates to the PL and also to show him that we have faith in him and his development. /quote]

Like you, I've enjoyed seeing Rice this pre-season. Think he already looks more mature in many ways than Oxford, but then young players develop at different speeds and in different bursts. He already seems physically more robust than the others at his age and has a more physical presence on the pitch.

Quina would probably have been on tour with the first team had he not had the U-19 tournament, but his time will come.

Haven't seen anything from Makasi to convince me he'll make it. Holland is still very slight of build, but has pace and trickery. Loans for Cullen and Burke are probably the right move for them at this stage.
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Re: Youth development

Postby seanWHU on Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:01 pm

Does anyone know where Samuelsen is, has he joined the rest of the squad for preseason? I was looking out for him in the subs and wasn't sure if he was injured or something.
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Re: Youth development

Postby bubbles500 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:17 pm

And that is exactly the point. This thread is called "youth development". Players don't develop by being squad members and unused subs. They'll learn far more playing regularly, even at a lower level. We've obviously loaned Burke & Cullen on 5 month deals in order that we can change things up in Jan if they're not playing. If they get regular games (and we're not injury ravaged) then I'd expect to see it all renewed till May.

[/quote]

And yet probably the two most renowned managers for working with youth in the league pochettino and klopp would much rather keep their brightest talents close and coach them themselves Which to me makes perfect sense.I have had my own businesses and promising younger staff members.I wouldn't think about loaning them out to other companies who were on a lower level to my company ,really can't see how this benefits them.The "it will toughen them up" approach is so medevial.Id much rather nurture them, self impart all my knowledge on to them,ingraine into them a style of play and let them work with quality professionals on a daily basis.Sure people will site Harry Kane blah blah,but Kane himself has said pochettino has been the most important figure in his development.Unfortunately I just don't think bilic thinks like this,his methods just feel very old school.
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Re: Youth development

Postby Jumby on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:38 pm

Jordan Pask, anyone know what is happening with him? I'm surprised he hasn't gone out on loan.
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Re: Youth development

Postby bobd_uk on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:23 am

Jumby wrote:Jordan Pask, anyone know what is happening with him? I'm surprised he hasn't gone out on loan.


Josh Pask. Scored the winner for the U23s at Tottenham last week. No rumours of a loan that I have seen yet.
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Re: Youth development

Postby YorksHammer on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:26 am

Was he the lad on loan at Gillingham last season? Didn't make many appearances, as I recall...
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Re: Youth development

Postby bobd_uk on Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:16 pm

YorksHammer wrote:Was he the lad on loan at Gillingham last season? Didn't make many appearances, as I recall...


9 starts, 3 sub appearances for Gillingham last season.

6 starts at Dagenham the season before.

Still only 19 though but, as a centre back, has a lot of people to pass to get anywhere near the team!
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Re: Youth development

Postby Hamburger on Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:45 pm

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I get exasperated by reports of us going in for talented young players when there really is not point in signing them. The money spent on training, facilities and wages is surely wasted when we don't give them a chance to prove themselves. Farming them off to lower league sides where the style of football is miles from what they should be working with to show their potential is a waste of time. The argument that 'if they can't shine in League 1 they can't do it in the PL' is nonsense. Stick Hernandez in Barnsley and see what sort of service he will get. God knows how demoralised Burke and Cullen feel getting slaughtered every week in a team of incompetents. Oh yes I forgot it's to 'get experience', well I bet they wish they never got it. I'm not saying that those two would make the grade, I'm just saying that loaning out isn't working. Either we support the young players or we should abandon the pretense of having an academy and continue to buy sub standard, make weight foreigners in my opinion.
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Re: Youth development

Postby bubbles500 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:53 pm

Hamburger here's an idea.Why not send one of our most talented kids off to Germany for a year to sit on the bench.The fact is we are **** at youth development.1 player in a decade.Had a quick look a England youth teams announced today don't think we've got 1 player across all age groups apart from a keeper.
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Re: Youth development

Postby Hamburger on Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:57 am

bubbles500 wrote:Hamburger here's an idea.Why not send one of our most talented kids off to Germany for a year to sit on the bench.The fact is we are **** at youth development.1 player in a decade.Had a quick look a England youth teams announced today don't think we've got 1 player across all age groups apart from a keeper.


Good spot Bubbles, can't believe we've only 1 kid in the England youth set up. Academy Of Football? It's shameful.

Ox sitting on the bench is ridiculous, better off playing regularly for U23. He's learning nothing but how to be shunned and demoralised. Rumour has it he may get some minutes tomorrow due to teams poor recent performance. But if our youth opportunities are anything to go by, he'll be brought on with 5 minutes to play and need to score a hat trick + save two penalties if he's to get another chance. If he was a mediocre foreign import for us, he'd get a run of 10 games to settle in. Bizarre.
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Re: Youth development

Postby bubbles500 on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:20 am

It's actually 2 .Oxford and Trott in u20.But still a pretty poor show.Huddersfield have just shut their academy.If you were being realistic and not sentimental it's actually currently pointless us having an academy in its current state.
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Re: Youth development

Postby thejackhammer on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:41 am

Sullivan's plants start sowing the seeds of the closure of our academy :P
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Re: Youth development

Postby Hamburger on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:02 pm

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No wonder we have such a sh1te national team. The stakes are too high in PL to risk on untried youth so that filters down the whole system. How a kid jumps from average to good is impossible but for a few. Every year we get the same old 'grassroots development' bullsh from the FA yet every year we get worse as a national side. Last year without Harry Kane England had only Defoe as first choice striker FFS.

It won't change in the current set up that is why I would be keen on a Euro Super League. Let the money machine f off and do their thing with insane transfer fees and leave 'real' clubs on a level playing field to develop the home growns with realistic fees and season tickets. Pipe dream?
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Re: Youth development

Postby bobd_uk on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:32 pm

Hamburger wrote:Good spot Bubbles, can't believe we've only 1 kid in the England youth set up. Academy Of Football? It's shameful.


In fairness though, it's also because we have many non-English players. At youth level, we have the likes of Cullen, Quina, Fernandes (now at full international I think), Samuelsen, Rice, Coventry, etc. all involved with other countries too, as well as Trott, Oxford and Kemp with various England teams.
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