Perspective

Does exactly what it says on the tin - the forum for football-related discussion.

Moderators: bristolhammerfc, sicknote, -DL-, Rio, Gnome, chalks, the pink palermo

Re: Perspective

Postby Carlton'sGoal on Fri May 19, 2017 9:30 am

Sad state when not being a completely incompetent owner, who can almost take a club out of existence, is the yard stick that we measure ourselves by.
User avatar
Carlton'sGoal
 
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: Perspective

Postby ironilunga on Fri May 19, 2017 9:31 am

I think the OP makes a good point.

Over the past year there has been so much supposition of wrong doing by the owners which suddenly seems to gather pace and becomes a sort of fake news.

I have read multiple posts directing blame at the owners for stuff that was seemingly dreamt up by the person who posted it. Regular themes of critical posts relate to under investment in the playing squad, blame for poor signings and the owners using various media outlets as their mouthpiece. The reality is that the facts on spending do not back up the argument of non investment. The owners also seem to bare the blame for bad signings yet good ones are mysteriously overlooked. We have had during their tenure some of the best players to wear the shirt (Payet & Lanzini) yet we only ever hear of sully specials (Lanzini was one). In respect of using various media outlets as their mouthpiece - where are the facts?

I personally have greater respect for people who slate the board for the stadium move alone. It is at least something they did. This issue aside (and it is a big one) the owners have done very well.
User avatar
ironilunga
 
Posts: 3314
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Perspective

Postby ashbanki on Fri May 19, 2017 9:44 am

If you want some perspective check Southampton potted ,recent ,history on wiki - In League 1 and in administration when bought in 2009.We were in the Prem and ,supposedly, close to administration at the same time!Since we both came back to the Prem, we have only finished above them the first season.They have been ,systematically, stripped of their managers and best players, but still managed to finish above us - they have spent £40m on new training facilities and go about replacing managers and players with the minimum of fuss and tabloid headlines - We have the "David Sullivan Media Circus" who use our football club to "self promote" Southampton = Excavators - building foundations. West Ham = Dildos - pleasuring oneself!!
ashbanki
 
Posts: 2277
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Perspective

Postby James P on Fri May 19, 2017 10:02 am

The problem is that the club regular use spin, half-truth's and outright lies when dealing with fans. After that it becomes second nature to presume they're lying more often than not.

I don't blame the board for us being a mid table side who are very unlikely to crack the top six. We've always been that. It's their business methods that leave a horrible taste in the mouth.
User avatar
James P
 
Posts: 13718
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Romford

Re: Perspective

Postby YorksHammer on Fri May 19, 2017 10:19 am

James P wrote:The problem is that the club regular use spin, half-truth's and outright lies when dealing with fans. After that it becomes second nature to presume they're lying more often than not.


This is my biggest issue with the board - the 'best stadium migration ever', £30m strikers, so much money to spend, all this talking to the press or using their mouthpieces to spin positive news about the club. It really grinds me down to hear all these things when the evidence is that it just won't happen.

My biggest annoyance is that this season we will see our debt level, owed to the two chairmen and other clubs, exceed what it was when they first took over - some £72/73m owed to those two, including the interest gained on the loans, pluse something in the region of £40m (supposedly 'normal operating debt for clubs at our level'...) owed to other clubs in transfer fees from staggered payments or clauses or whatever. We've had our fingers burnt once by having such a level of debt, and whilst I appreciate this is very different in terms of who the debt is owed to I find it outrageously stupid that it would be allowed to reach this level, and exceed it with no sign of it being paid down in the future, again.
YorksHammer
 
Posts: 1775
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Perspective

Postby taffhammer on Fri May 19, 2017 10:27 am

ironilunga wrote:I have read multiple posts directing blame at the owners for stuff that was seemingly dreamt up by the person who posted it. Regular themes of critical posts relate to under investment in the playing squad, blame for poor signings and the owners using various media outlets as their mouthpiece. The reality is that the facts on spending do not back up the argument of non investment. The owners also seem to bare the blame for bad signings yet good ones are mysteriously overlooked. We have had during their tenure some of the best players to wear the shirt (Payet & Lanzini) yet we only ever hear of sully specials (Lanzini was one). In respect of using various media outlets as their mouthpiece - where are the facts?



Trouble is we don't attract proven good players because we sign players with a gamble on both sides. All the players we sign are either injury prone, dressing room sulkers, very young with potential, on their way out or ended up in a tin pot league due to a bad agent. They get these players on cheap deals or deals that go up on appearances.
Thats why when a player comes good they have to tie them down early on a much better contract, Lanzini and Antonio for example.They come here because no one else was looking at them and we take a gamble. Sometimes it pays off but its not the way to challenge for any success as a team.
GSB are chancers.
User avatar
taffhammer
 
Posts: 2262
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: from the wick of hackney to the seaside

Re: Perspective

Postby spod on Fri May 19, 2017 10:46 am

bab_whu wrote:We absolutely should have ambition but some of the abuse levelled at G&S is IMO unjustified. We are trying to go to a place West Ham has never gone before. Likelihood is G&S don't have the funds to take us there (such is football these days) but I do not necessarily see this as their 'fault'.

They have made errors, of course, but we owe a lot to them. Let's hope they can deliver this transfer window.


1. We are trying to go to a place West Ham has never gone before.
No we're not. We're talking about it, but doing nothing. This is my main problem. The lies.
I don't blame them for the hit and miss transfers. I don't even blame them for not investing in training facilities, ground improvements, youth policy and even backroom staff. It's because they're not that rich, and they're old and don't want to invest in anything that won't give them a quick return before they sell up.
I do blame them for trying to convince us that we have anything to gain from their business style.
They're greedy and they're liars.

That's my perspective.
User avatar
spod
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:28 am
Location: London

Re: Perspective

Postby Kialos on Fri May 19, 2017 11:39 am

bab_whu wrote:Blackpool will play in the League 2 play off final next weekend. I have been a huge critic of the Board and Slav this season but sometimes a bit of perspective is useful.
Whilst we shouldn't gauge our progress against a side like Blackpool it is a stark reminder of what could have happened (they were the better team that day!)

We absolutely should have ambition but some of the abuse levelled at G&S is IMO unjustified. We are trying to go to a place West Ham has never gone before. Likelihood is G&S don't have the funds to take us there (such is football these days) but I do not necessarily see this as their 'fault'.

They have made errors, of course, but we owe a lot to them. Let's hope they can deliver this transfer window.


I don't owe a single thing to them and praising them because we are not Blackpool just shows how far you have had to scrape the barrel to do so.
Kialos
 
Posts: 6055
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:11 pm

Re: Perspective

Postby btajim - mcfc on Fri May 19, 2017 11:58 am

I see the move to the new ground as nothing but greed. Admittedly, I've not been there yet but it looks unfit for football. Upton Park was absolutely brilliant. 44,000 with an extension would've been perfect.

They clearly fancy selling it to a bored billionaire and having a final pay day. You might get lucky with a Sheikh Mansour or you might not.
User avatar
btajim - mcfc
There when they were sh*t
 
Posts: 6507
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:40 pm
Location: Failsworth, Manchester

Re: Perspective

Postby Ben on Fri May 19, 2017 12:29 pm

always amazes me that people apologise and stick up for this lot :?
User avatar
Ben
 
Posts: 12786
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: Overdue warning for being a twat on the rumours thread

Re: Perspective

Postby MooresTheHero on Fri May 19, 2017 1:01 pm

I have followed my beloved team since I was five 1964). I hardly ever get to games and have only been to the Olympic Stadium once. I have seen some ***** owners and managers, but also some greats (Greenwood and Lyall).

This trio seem to spout as much spin as the lying fool Blair. Maybe they attended the same course on how to talk ballacks !

All I want is the truth. That and the odd cup run is what's normal.

I suppose that I'm just a sucker, but when the trio arrived I had high(ish) hopes.
User avatar
MooresTheHero
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: North Yorkshire - God's Country

Re: Perspective

Postby Iron George on Fri May 19, 2017 1:04 pm

spod wrote:They're greedy and they're liars.


Succinctly summed up in just five words.
Iron George
 
Posts: 2142
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:57 am

Re: Perspective

Postby WHU_Del on Fri May 19, 2017 1:16 pm

mushy wrote:The income from the bigger stadium is about £11 million according to Sullivan. Thats about the fee for Snodgrass (excluding wages).

Is that just from ticket income, or does that take into account more programmes sold, more merchandise sold, more food and drink sold and so on?
User avatar
WHU_Del
 
Posts: 6008
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:18 pm
Location: In the words of William Morris: 'I come not from Heaven, but from Essex'.

Re: Perspective

Postby Dieter Eckstein on Fri May 19, 2017 1:20 pm

I'd rather judge them on the basis of who they are, than who they aren't.
User avatar
Dieter Eckstein
 
Posts: 1724
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:34 pm
Location: Dangerously close to doing some work

Re: Perspective

Postby Claret&Blue,Thru& on Fri May 19, 2017 1:27 pm

WHU_Del wrote: They need the income from the bigger stadium to fund the better contracts and to be able to afford the better players.
I'm no fan of the Three Stooges, but it's a bit rich to expect them to deliver that after one season in the OS.


It's the TV income that counts. The extra from the Poxy Athletics Stadium should be used to give a discount to the 1966 club, Band 1, etc. to compensate for the reduced experience when compared to the Boleyn.
Claret&Blue,Thru&
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:17 pm

Re: Perspective

Postby ludo22 on Fri May 19, 2017 1:29 pm

The Old Mile End wrote:My journey started in 1963.

I owe them nothing.

They owe me the Boleyn Ground.

It's all about perspective isn't it.


My journey started in 1976.I didn't want the OS originally and I certainly don't want it now.They stole our soul for a few lousy quid.**** em.
User avatar
ludo22
 
Posts: 2058
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:06 pm
Location: on a dark desert highway,cool wind in my hair

Re: Perspective

Postby bubbles500 on Fri May 19, 2017 1:35 pm

Some people need to take their head out the sand .this they "saved us " is bollox .they gave us s loan st a very high interest rate .The fact is they will never take us to the next level .There is only 2 possible ways we get to next level .1 we got bought out by a multi billionaire .2 we miraculously turn into a very well run club along the lines of spurs , it's pretty clear the later will never happen ,nothing has changed in 7 years so it isn't gonna change now .The best we can hope for us to maintain EPL status or have a freak season based on a fortunate buy or 2
bubbles500
 
Posts: 412
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:44 pm

Re: Perspective

Postby iLoveLasagne on Fri May 19, 2017 1:36 pm

Like wildkard says, there is always someone worse off than yourself. But that shouldn't be how we measure our own plight. We could just as easily measure ourselves against Tottenham.
User avatar
iLoveLasagne
 
Posts: 1365
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:17 am

Re: Perspective

Postby mushy on Fri May 19, 2017 1:42 pm

mushy wrote:The income from the bigger stadium is about £11 million according to Sullivan. Thats about the fee for Snodgrass (excluding wages).

WHU_Del wrote:Is that just from ticket income, or does that take into account more programmes sold, more merchandise sold, more food and drink sold and so on?

Everything, remember they are Sully's figures not mine, I (and a few others) actually calculated it at 12 mill before the move.
Of course I don't know exactly if there is a massive amount of more merchandise/programmes sold at this stage or how much it is worth. But it will not be much in the scheme of things.
Food and drink, is that ours or the stadium owners?
Also this season just ending was the big earner as they tied down a lot of season ticket holders/corporate clients to 2/3 year deals. In other words, compared to this season the amount will go down and not up.
So, if the income they accumulated last summer is in line with the amount spent on transfers/wages at that time, then I would guess we are in for a pretty lean time, unless they are stockpiling cash.
Which they are not.
mushy
 
Posts: 11011
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:17 pm
Location: Kumb Poster of the year 2009

Re: Perspective

Postby Estuary on Fri May 19, 2017 2:07 pm

There are a whole heap of clubs that we could sight as "there but for the grace of god", who have fallen out of the premier league and suffered grievous mismanagement.

Bottom half of the Championship

Villa (European Cup winners the year after we last won the FA Cup)
Wolves
Ipswich
QPR (Wither the clamor for Fernandez?)
Birmingham City
Nottingham Forest (Twice European Cup winners)
Blackburn (Relegated)
Wigan (FA Cup winners 2013, Relegated)

Div One

Sheffield Utd (Karma!!!!)
Bolton
Charlton
Coventry (Relegated)

Div Two

Portsmouth
Blackpool (Our playoff final opponents 2012)

These illustrate that we could have worse owners, in fact we could have Tony Fernandez, and if our owners saved us it was from owners like those of the clubs listed. What our two didn't do was save West Ham, Allardyce had more beneficial influence on the club than they did during his time.

In terms of perspective, I think the team have done OK given **** storm of a season and all the issues, moving ground and all that followed, moving training ground, poor recruitment, serious injuries to both starting forwards, the Payet saga, 12th is no mean feat given all of that. But where I do have a some issues is the lack of nouse when putting our business into the public domain, and chief amongst that was the "we are going to sign a multi multi £m striker", that coupled with puffing up of the new stadium versus many peoples reality, was naive, and seriously over promised, for that I think the owners owe it to the support to get it back on track in the recruitment area, and bring in a forward who impacts like Lanzini or Kouyate, only that will pay off the credibility debt that Sully as director of football has built up.

That said, and I am not excusing the issues I highlight, compared to Pompy or Blackburn, we don't have it so bad, but that's only relative.
User avatar
Estuary
 
Posts: 3024
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:40 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: anjado, ashbanki, Bribo, buffybegood, CubanHammer, Dave Hedgehog, EastleighHammer16, Folkestonehammer, frankiemac 69, Google [Bot], Greatest Hits Vol1, MD_HM, ogtec, petergj, RayleighIrons, Smonnie, Spammy The Vee, Stulaw, warp, Westcountry and 83 guests