Declan Rice

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Re: Declan Rice

Postby DDHammer on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:06 pm

HammerAl wrote:Rice is head and shoulders above Dier (who is possibly one of the most overrated players in the PL and how he's been given the captain's arm band for England in the past makes me feel quite queasy) already and will end up being two or three times the player


I don't particularly rate Dier but ****ing hell.

Dier has played 190 games for a team that consistently finishes in the top 4 and 34 games for England.

Rice has had a handful of good games for a bottom half team and played in 3 Ireland friendlies.

If Rice ends up being two or three times the player Dier is then he'll probably finish his career with 700 games for Real Madrid or Barca.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Happyhammer52 on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:12 pm

DDHammer wrote:I don't particularly rate Dier but ****ing hell.

Dier has played 190 games for a team that consistently finishes in the top 4 and 34 games for England.

Rice has had a handful of good games for a bottom half team and played in 3 Ireland friendlies.

If Rice ends up being two or three times the player Dier is then he'll probably finish his career with 700 games for Real Madrid or Barca.


Nail, head, hammer.

Really hope that Rice can keep up this progressive development, still incredibly young. Certainly not out the question he might just plateau out though.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby HammerAl on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:18 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:It is an extremely biased view to say that Rice is better than Dier

Until Rice has played in high profile European matches, or big international games it is impossible to compare

I don't rate Dier that much, but a couple of seasons back he was very good playing in that position in front of the back four, and very consistent. To the extent that a lot of Spurs fans thought he was one of their most important players

Rice has looked pretty good at DM in a handful of games so far, but that is all.

A huge amount of hyperbole on this thread IMHO


I am one of the most UN-biased fans on here. C&B specs kept well and truly away 99% of the time.

But, I've seen both players enough times to base my opinion on Rice being a better footballer and better prospect than Dier. There have been some pretty poor players who have played in good teams and there have also been some good players who have played in pretty poor teams. Which opens the whole "players at big teams getting call ups" debate. Just because a player has received call ups, played in big games or played for big teams, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are actually THAT good, nor that they are better than players who play for lesser teams and haven't receive call ups.

Also, two seasons ago was two seasons ago - some players can and have massively deteriorated / lost confidence in that time. Danny Drinkwater has won the PL, played in the CL, played for England & now plays for Chelsea, yet most fans on here would have Noble ahead of him in their team. Dier had Vertonghen & Alderweireld behind him, Dembele beside him and Eriksen in front of him. I think I'd even be pretty good playing in his role in that team!
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby the celestial insect on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:19 pm

JuniorBilly wrote:Has been a class above the last few games. Really developing into some player, which is probably why the whole contract situation is making people knicker wet.

He's got 2 years left, plenty of time to get things sorted. Chill boys, chill.


The trouble, IMO, is that it's not helpful to create a difficult relationship with the player/agent in his position, when they hold all the cards. Two years might be a lot when a player is edging into his late 20s and in his prime. It's nothing at Rice's age and stage of development.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby HammerAl on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:27 pm

DDHammer wrote:I don't particularly rate Dier but ****ing hell.

Dier has played 190 games for a team that consistently finishes in the top 4 and 34 games for England.

Rice has had a handful of good games for a bottom half team and played in 3 Ireland friendlies.

If Rice ends up being two or three times the player Dier is then he'll probably finish his career with 700 games for Real Madrid or Barca.


So what? Dier is 5 years older than Rice and he plays for Spurs. There have been some very ordinary players who have racked up many appearances for club and country. If Rice carries on playing as well as he has been for the next few years, he will be at a top club, eclipsing everything Dier has done.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby JuniorBilly on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:31 pm

the celestial insect wrote:
The trouble, IMO, is that it's not helpful to create a difficult relationship with the player/agent in his position, when they hold all the cards. Two years might be a lot when a player is edging into his late 20s and in his prime. It's nothing at Rice's age and stage of development.


Agreed, its probably not wiser having all the negotiations seemingly leaked and out there in the public while discussions are still going on, but lets be honest, do we expect any different with the 3 herberts in charge?
Whether or not the whole 'saga' has caused difficulties in the relationship with the player/agent, we just don't know. Certainly doesn't look like Declan has been effected by it, quite the contrary.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Crouchend_Hammer on Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:16 pm

HammerAl wrote:
So what? Dier is 5 years older than Rice and he plays for Spurs. There have been some very ordinary players who have racked up many appearances for club and country. If Rice carries on playing as well as he has been for the next few years, he will be at a top club, eclipsing everything Dier has done.


he may well do, but seems a bit of a leap to say he is head and shoulders better than Dier based on less than 10 games playing DM
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Hugh Jargon II on Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:21 pm

Rice had been "knobbled" I suspect. Probably whilst on international duty. It happens. He won't agree to **** all. If he turns his back on Ireland he is a shitbag in any case. I just hope we exercise the 2 year option and let him sulk. We won't though. A big 6 club have most probably already decided what they want to pay him.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Hammers Dad on Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:27 pm

Hugh Jargon II wrote: If he turns his back on Ireland he is a shitbag in any case. .

Isn't he English, born in London to English parents and only qualifies for Ireland because of a Grandfather?
Hardly a born and bred Irishman
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Ariksan on Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:29 pm

JuniorBilly wrote:He's got 2 years left, plenty of time to get things sorted. Chill boys, chill.


Does he have 2 more years on his contract?
I was under the impression that he can leave end of this season for a nominal fee determined by a tribunal.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Hayden on Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:35 pm

Hugh Jargon II wrote:Rice had been "knobbled" I suspect. Probably whilst on international duty. It happens. He won't agree to **** all. If he turns his back on Ireland he is a shitbag in any case. I just hope we exercise the 2 year option and let him sulk. We won't though. A big 6 club have most probably already decided what they want to pay him.


Have you been drinking, Hugh?
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby e17 on Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:37 pm

Hugh Jargon II wrote:Rice had been "knobbled" I suspect. Probably whilst on international duty. It happens. He won't agree to **** all. If he turns his back on Ireland he is a shitbag in any case. I just hope we exercise the 2 year option and let him sulk. We won't though. A big 6 club have most probably already decided what they want to pay him.

Stay classy
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby hammerman11 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:29 am

rice has rightly considered his options for international football and rightly chosen England as he is English !

he is far from a scumbag

his contract will be sorted and the leaks are unfortunate but that is todays world. he will sign a new deal soon and go onto to captain us before he is 21.

great player with a great attitude.

we need more young players like him and diop in the squad

holland diagana coventry are the future.

how about a song to push this over the line....sign him up west ham sign the ricey up !
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Hayden on Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:23 am

RICE RICE BABY
DECLAN
RICE RICE BABY
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby steveyrockstar on Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:36 am

Hugh Jargon II wrote:Rice had been "knobbled" I suspect. Probably whilst on international duty. It happens. He won't agree to **** all. If he turns his back on Ireland he is a shitbag in any case. I just hope we exercise the 2 year option and let him sulk. We won't though. A big 6 club have most probably already decided what they want to pay him.


Tarnishing someone with thoughtless remarks when you know no so little about them and then making wild claims - would expect better from a veteran, normally reasoned poster like yourself Hugh. Hope you're in a better mood today!
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Rays Rock on Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:02 am

From Rices point of view, why would he want to sign a new contract now when he knows ful well that he will be offered a much better one later on as a first team regular and a full season under his belt. West Ham will have to offer him a better contract in the knowledge that someone else will be doing the same.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby the pink palermo on Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:08 am

My two bob on this.

Firstly he has every right to try and negotiate the best possible deal for himself , he will look at Jack Collison daily and know that in the blink of an eye his career could be over. Jam tomorrow and a vague promise the club will look after him are not the same as a written contract with lots of noughts on it.

Secondly, his agent will have a feel for the market in terms of what players at other clubs at a similar stage of development will be getting , and he will also factor in things like the inflationary nature of deals with regards TV income. Rice has perhaps 10 years if he is fortunate to earn a lifetimes income, and it's his agents job to guide him appropriately. Not every agent is bad, most represent their clients well.

From the clubs perspective they are low balling for a variety of reasons, not least having been caught before due to errors of judgement and or the risk of giving a player too much too soon and the player becomes billy big gonads and thinks he's made it after a few dozen games.

Increasingly though football in the PL is becoming a "now" industry - Jose was happy to ship out Lukaku and De Bruyne at the time he had them because they were not the finished article and he wanted oven ready not raw ingredients. In a similar way if Rice wants £x per week he will be getting compared with players getting that at the moment who can do the same job as he can at the moment : no conversation about the future or the fact he may go on to be a great, it's simply comparing him with say a 26 year old who can do the same job today for the same money.

Therefore from the clubs perspective the question is how many top half teams would Rice be a certain starter in at the moment....sure he would start for several lower half teams, but would he get a starting place in a top 6 side ? I doubt it very much. The next 4 ? Maybe, maybe not.

If Rice does turn out to be a player who becomes a regular in a top 6 side we will sell him, the club will pay him just enough to sign a deal that allows them to recoup a handsome fee in about 3 years time. If he doesn't continue to progress the club will not face the prospect of awarding him his next contract from an unrealistic base.

For now though Rice is not being greedy, nor are the club being skinflints, it's a delicate balance.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Billydinho on Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:54 am

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:It is an extremely biased view to say that Rice is better than Dier

Until Rice has played in high profile European matches, or big international games it is impossible to compare

I don't rate Dier that much, but a couple of seasons back he was very good playing in that position in front of the back four, and very consistent. To the extent that a lot of Spurs fans thought he was one of their most important players

Rice has looked pretty good at DM in a handful of games so far, but that is all.

A huge amount of hyperbole on this thread IMHO


I usually guard against hyperbole but Dier is f*cking dreadful. He's never been better than average.

If he didn't play for Spurs nor have Dembele and Wanyama next to him most weeks he'd be mentioned amongst the worst in the league.

You know he only gets caps because of who he plays for. See Harry Winks, Ryan Mason and Anthony Gardner for other examples.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Wilko1304 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:58 pm

Winks is decent, in an era where England aren’t great in centre midfield. He didn’t play too badly against Barca the other day, and he’s apparently in contention with a player whose side drew with Norwich.

Dier looks lost by Spurs’s system in their current state, injuries forcing changes. He’s been good for them as an auxiliary centre back, stepping into midfield or into a back three.

Personally, I think Dier is a centre back.

All that aside, Dier has had good seasons for Spurs, Rice is young and could be brilliant. Weirdly, their roles agave been very different, essentially because Rice, regardless of being considered a centre back by many, doesn’t seem to act as that bonus third centre back for us. He does more in front and patrolling across, but that’s the system and it suits him.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Billydinho on Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:04 pm

Dier has been worse than usual on every occasion he's played centre half.

Winks is average, no more no less. You look at players from that club who have got caps over the years and it's scandalous that Noble has never had one.
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