Declan Rice

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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Crouchend_Hammer on Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:05 pm

Ozza wrote:Can you imagine those scum bags from North London acting like this with a talent like Declan, Levy would have him wrapped up in a 10 year contract months ago



Whilst I agree to an extent, it is much easier to get a young player to sign long-term for Spurs than it is for us because they have been much more successful on the field - challenging for League, cup semi finals/ finals, Champions League

We could offer Declan, or any other young player 60k a week for five years, but that doesn't mean they will accept it, if they think they can go to a bigger club. Nor does it mean they won't harangue for a move one year into the contract if they want to go elsewhere
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby davids cross on Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:10 pm

sutts07 wrote:We will get this done.


I think we will too..

He has got very good very quickly..............and consistently too.

Wherever West Ham were with their earlier thinking, (and as an overall thought, I don't think they are totally wrong in their thinking re young players)........they have to change their attitude now and move things forward very quickly.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Graza on Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:19 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:We could offer Declan, or any other young player 60k a week for five years, but that doesn't mean they will accept it, if they think they can go to a bigger club. Nor does it mean they won't harangue for a move one year into the contract if they want to go elsewhere

We haven't though have we. It's not like Rice is demanding 100k a week and a gaurenteed starting spot. He's just asking for middle of the road PL money. Yes he could go backwards, yes he could get injured, yes this could be his peak, but all of the signs say the opposite (apart from injury, come in its us). If we slapped an extra 3/4 years on his contract for the stated asked for 40k a week even if we don't get what we think we might out of him we'll still get more value than the broken donkey for half the money.

How we've let this run? Baffling. Just baffling.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Crouchend_Hammer on Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:26 pm

Graza wrote:We haven't though have we. It's not like Rice is demanding 100k a week and a gaurenteed starting spot. He's just asking for middle of the road PL money. .


I don't know. I haven't been privy to the discussions

My point was that it is not as simple as comparing the situation to Spurs because they have more to offer a young player than just a wage packet
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby sutts07 on Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:37 pm

Graza wrote:We haven't though have we. It's not like Rice is demanding 100k a week and a gaurenteed starting spot. He's just asking for middle of the road PL money.


How do you know what we have offered and what he is asking for?

Plus, is he really a middle of the road player yet? You could certainly argue it on current form but should we be basing renewals on his current run of five/six good games?

He is an outstanding youngster with huge potential so the contract needs to be right and needs to have the correct increments and incentives included etc... That all takes time to work out and agree.

Using someone like Winks as a benchmark, the ball park figures being batted around seem to be the same (40k per week) and that is despite Winks being two years older, established at a bigger club, has UCL experience and full England caps...

Winks took a much lower wage when he was Declan's age. Worked hard and was rewarded with an improved contract in 2017 then again in 2018 which sees him earn the same as Rice is asking for now.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way putting Declan down and think he deserves every penny we can throw at him. He is a genuine talent and one that we absolutely have to lock down for the future. I just think we all need a little reality check in the grand scheme of things.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:44 pm

The midfielder’s latest agreement will expire at the end of the 2021-22 campaign, meaning it has been prolonged by another year. The improved wage for Winks is expected to come in around the £25,000-a-week mark.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/footba ... 66131.html

think the Currant Bun had him doubling his money to 40K - most other papers don't give a figure.

Phil Foden is reported to be around 25K per. Foden is 17, Winks 22 and has played for England...

so at least a benchmark and a starting place.

with young players these days you pay for "potential." Simple. If you wait until they peak you're underpaying them or someone is going to nick them.

hardly anyone seemed to bitch about paying Evra 60K-90K (never did find out the real figures) and he never played. well not what I would call playing.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby sutts07 on Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:57 pm

As far as I know, we pay...

Noble 50k per week... club captain pushing 450 appearances...
Obiang is also on 50k per week but came to us as an established player...
Snodgrass is on around 40k per week and he is an established international...
Kouyate and Fernandes were both on 30k per week and are also established internationals...


I'd personally say that if we are bench-marking, this is where we need to be looking. The likes of Carroll, Fonte and Evra picking up 70k + is just an absolute joke truth be told.

Hard to say what a player is worth to a club these days but I'd say 25k - 30k is a good deal for Rice. Obviously I'm not his agent, nor am I a chairman so it is all just numbers in the air to me.

Also assuming these are all basic wages... players can double their money with appearances, goals, clean sheets and wins each week...
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:08 pm

I'd say we are getting a great deal with Noble on 50K to be fair..

again, with Obiang I'd say about right but with the t.v. deals who's to say ?

Yesterday's 40K is today's 70K.

Sterling is reportedly going to be the highest paid English player at 330K per.

Still if Sanchez and the rest are on that, why should being English be a handicap ?

pay the going rate. starter in the PL playing regularly gets x..more obviously for an established international with loads of caps at a decent country - Dem Rep of Congo doesn't count !!!!!

:D

if a player gets going then you can always renegotiate upwards, but for those who go into the shytter, they NEVER renegotiate downwards....

have always maintained that.............no matter how old you are, if you are a starter regularly, get paid like one.

chairmen who spunk money on over rated players on the downward slope just to have a "name" star is their fault. younger kids shouldn't pay the price....
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby JuniorBilly on Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:11 pm

Its ticking up with every appearance which I'm sure the owners will be aware of (they are many things but surely not stupid enough to ignore this).

I imagine agent is playing hard ball and we do not want to chuck silly money at him due to what has happened with the likes of Oxford.

He isn't making a song and dance about it which says to me he is very happy here and letting his agent do his job. I think it will get done, just a question of negotiation and both parties settling on the right numbers, which is pretty standard in a contract negotiation.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby sutts07 on Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:21 pm

If what is being reported is to believed, we are pretty much there with the deal, it is just the structure of it that needs work and I'd assume it is the agent pushing for a change in structure as opposed to the player.

Putting it in basic recruitment terms, Rice's agent is pushing for a higher base with less commission (he gets paid a percentage of the base of course).

Telegraph Sport understands that the latest rejected offer was for a basic £15,000-a-week plus £20,000 for every Premier League game Rice started - plus a rise of £5,000-a-week after every 15 Premier League starts.

That would mean Rice would get £20,000-a-week basic after 15 games, £25,000-a-week basic after 30 starts and so on - plus the £20,000 per league start on top.

So after 15 league starts Rice would earn £40,000-a-week each time he started a game.


With Rice looking like a nailed on starter for us now, he could realistically be looking to start 30 of the 38 EPL games for us which would improve his weekly wage by 10k each season from here on. He'd also be getting 20k each time he starts. It is a decent deal for him with his wages more than likely improving automatically as he grows as a player.

West Ham have now improved that offer further with, it is understood, Rice’s representatives arguing for a higher basic salary and fewer add-ons. However, contrary to claims, Rice is not out of contract at the end of this season so West Ham can wait.


Rice is contracted until June 2020, and West Ham have an option that can be triggered to extend for another 12 months, keeping him here on 3k a week until June 2021, then still take a compensation payout if he walked away due to him being an academy graduate. Obviously no one at the club would want that to happen as it will massively upset the player and no doubt the whole dressing room.

The agent might think he holds all the cards here, but ultimately he is screwing Declan out of a considerable amount of money each week as things stand, all in the hope of getting himself a bigger commission cheque when the contract is eventually signed (let's be honest, the agent doesn't care when that is, as long as it is signed eventually).

Let's not forget that an agents fee would be paid as a percentage of the basic wage over the full term of the contract so an extra 5k a week over five years is worth fighting for in his eyes, while the match fees and hypothetical appearance increase mean nothing to him. Declan could currently be banking them each week however.

Even on the numbers reported in the previously rejected deal, Declan is missing out on 12k per week for every week he does not sign this deal and he is presumably not racking up his Premier League starts either (he has started 8 games this season already so would be well on the way to the first of his 5k increases).

By my calculations (which may be wildly inaccurate), for every 12 weeks it drags on, Declan is missing out on a years worth of his base being 5k per week higher.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:36 pm

pretty sure you're correct, the agent would get a percentage of his salary - my guess also the signing on fee which would probably be based on the salary figure - ergo he gets more.

I also to an extent though agree with a higher base..suppose he is out for a long time with say an Achilles or ACL. he would only get his base salary and not an appearance fee PLUS his base salary, increased each time he reached another 15 appearances, would also not be triggered.

so while the agent is protecting himself, I can still see where he is protecting Declan. if say he misses a year, his base contract wouldn't kick in nor would his appearance money be paid.

so definitely if I am his agent, i would go for a higher base and less add ons.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby sutts07 on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:19 am

The obvious next step would be to take 5k from the match fee and add it to the weekly base.
20k per week with 15k per start. I’d assume that’s what we’ve gone back with.

I’d also assume that the agent would be pushing for 25k as a base and 15 per start (or even 30k 10k if he is that greedy) putting him on 40k per start. That doesn’t seem unfair in the grand scheme of things, especially when you consider current form and the fact that he’s one of the first five names on the team sheet right now. He’ll be on that wage soon enough regardless.

I’d say an agreement could be reached at 20k per week but with a 15k match fee (plus all of this season starts - 9 by the end of the week - counted towards his first pay increment).

Come the new year he’d be on 40k per start, come the end of the season that would most likely be 45k.

Considering he’s getting 3k per week now... that’s a good deal in my eyes.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:33 pm

but sutts

as I pointed out, if he gets a Yarmo, Lanzini or Sanchez type injured he's 1 year behind in his base salary increases.

I understand his agent's point...
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby sutts07 on Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:34 pm

Cuenca 'ammer wrote:but sutts

as I pointed out, if he gets a Yarmo, Lanzini or Sanchez type injured he's 1 year behind in his base salary increases.

I understand his agent's point...


Likewise, if he gets such an injury we are left paying him a higher base to sit and watch from the stands and we could even end up with another Jack Collison on our hands who is decent but never quite kicks on to become the next Carrick or Lampard.

I can imagine our board have had quite enough of paying big wages to players who just sit around the treatment room all the time. Why should anyone get a pay hike , bonus or reward for taking six months off work? He'd be basically getting 20-25k a week sick pay... not bad really considering he has only just broken into the team.

Of course I get your point and the vast majority of us would always want a higher base salary but we need to remember that Rice is still only 19 and has only had a handful of top performances behind him so far. He has at least a decade ahead of him earning serious amounts of money and if he keeps on improving we can keep offering him improved contracts (Winks has been offered 3 in two years at Spurs). What we can't do is negotiate his wage down if he has a rough patch or fails to reach potential.

It just sounds like his agent is trying to make the deal far too one sided to me and there has to be some middle ground.

You can't factor potential injuries into a contract but you can reward players for international call ups, and sustained first team starts.

Rice stands to jump from a basic wage of 3k a week now up to a basic of around 25k per week come the new year. That is not a bad percentage increase for a 19 year old DCM / CB to be fair.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Overchuffed on Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:44 pm

It beggers belief if they are quibbling over a few thousand.
We are supposed to be building a "world class team" for a "world class stadium" and its players Like Rice who we need to show are a major part of the long term future of our club.

Just pay the boy - he's honestly the best player I've seen come through our system since Rio and if we are not careful we'll end up losing him the same way we did with Rio and be back at square one fighting for survival.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Crouchend_Hammer on Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:52 pm

Overchuffed wrote:It beggers belief if they are quibbling over a few thousand.
We are supposed to be building a "world class team" for a "world class stadium" and its players Like Rice who we need to show are a major part of the long term future of our club.

Just pay the boy - he's honestly the best player I've seen come through our system since Rio and if we are not careful we'll end up losing him the same way we did with Rio and be back at square one fighting for survival.


of course, i hope we get him signed up ASAP, but what difference would Rice signing a new contract make on whether or not we would lose him in the same way we lost Rio?
Last edited by Crouchend_Hammer on Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:53 pm

sutts

don't disagree mate...playing Devil's Advocate here..

that's probably why there has been no movement................club not wanting to pay hefty waged to someone who gets hurt, but honestly with our track records of signings, we do have previous...

:D

let's be honest though, IF, and that's an IF, he were to sign for say a Chelsea or City or ManU., his wages would be 40-50K per minimum, irrespective on how old he is.

so he can sit out the contract and make up way enough money in the jump with a.n. other or sign for what the club feels "is right." to be honest, the ball is in his court, although if he gets injured on this salary he stands to lose a load.

my other guess is that players insure themselves against loss of earnings due to injury, outside of what the club do.

so he would be fine were that to happen.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Graza on Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:41 pm

sutts07 wrote:How do you know what we have offered and what he is asking for?

Plus, is he really a middle of the road player yet? You could certainly argue it on current form but should we be basing renewals on his current run of five/six good games?

I'm just, as you are, basing it off the paper talk - which seems to point to him wanting a 40k a week deal - more than sufficient for a mid range premier talent.

Given how far he's come between last year and this - where he was a god send during our annual center half injury spree - he shows all the signs of kicking on. Even if this was as good as he gets its probably worth it. How much are we paying Wheelchair? How much for Carroll (didn't need anything funny to refer to him as, his name is a byword for injured). To be done with the speculation and let him focus on the game it has to be worth it.

History and general luck would dictate we'd pay him that and he'd immediately do his ACL or something, but doing nothing could see him agitating for a move. Especially if he has to put up with Antonio giving him jump scares so they can play it on the big screen...
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby sutts07 on Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:14 pm

Cuenca 'ammer wrote:
let's be honest though, IF, and that's an IF, he were to sign for say a Chelsea or City or ManU., his wages would be 40-50K per minimum, irrespective on how old he is.


Phil Foden is in exactly the same position at Man City, braking through and getting rave reviews but only 18 years old and currently earning 3k per week.
Man City are currently holding off from giving him a 25k per week deal to 'keep his feet on the ground'...

Youngest player in the Chelsea squad is Kenedy, 21 years old Brazilian winger and he is only on 25k a week too.

40k a week basic is insane for Rice at the current stage of his career.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:35 pm

sutts

have only ever said that I can see the agent's viewpoint....Winks signed up.....

Foden hasn't played half as many games as Rice so hard to equal the two right now..but mooted at 25K

obviously harder for Foden to break into his team than Rice here but.........facts are he's played 40+ games.

he's so much more needed here than Foden is at Citeh..but I would have thought that Citeh would learn their lesson, losing Sancho, the other really good player on their books (Diaz I think) might be leaving soon too.....
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