Declan Rice

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Re: Declan Rice

Postby DM on Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:42 pm

O'Neill not giving up hope on Declan staying with Ireland

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2018/11 ... overtures/
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Knighter10WHU on Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:49 pm

sutts07 wrote:As far as I know, we pay...

Noble 50k per week... club captain pushing 450 appearances...
Obiang is also on 50k per week but came to us as an established player...
Snodgrass is on around 40k per week and he is an established international...
Kouyate and Fernandes were both on 30k per week and are also established internationals...

Hard to say what a player is worth to a club these days but I'd say 25k - 30k is a good deal for Rice. Obviously I'm not his agent, nor am I a chairman so it is all just numbers in the air to me.
.


Looking at those figures I would say that Rice is absolutely right to be looking at around £40,000 a week. No way should he be paid less than Snodgrass who is likely to be a squad player once everyone is fit and the same as Fernandes who isn't even deemed good enough to be in our squad at the moment. Also factor in that Rice has a brilliant re-sale value IF we can tie him down to a decent long term, high value contract whereas Snodgrass is only decreasing in value now.

Stop p*ss*ng about West Ham, sign him up and secure him for a couple more years at least and also secure a good release clause in the contract so that if he goes to one of the top 6 we get good value out of it. The longer this drags on the more concerned I am getting.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby sutts07 on Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:04 pm

Knighter10WHU wrote:The longer this drags on the more concerned I am getting.


I know I'm banging on like a broken record in this thread and playing devils advocate (sorry all), but it is this type of concern and hysteria that we are somehow going to lose him because we haven't sorted out a contract that I don't understand.

He is contracted to us until July 2020 and we can trigger a 12 month extension on that too. Diangana has the same duration on his contract and is no doubt on less money. There is no need to panic.

Rice is currently happy at West Ham, he is getting games, he is on the verge of securing a pay rise of around 830% and he is going to commit to the club for the foreseeable future.

You have to remember that when talks started, Declan wasn't anywhere near as established as he is now becoming. He had been dragged off at half time against Liverpool and dropped from the side for a few weeks. He had a blinder up at Everton when he was given another chance and hasn't looked back.

We will get this deal done, the only point I am trying to make is that it may not just be the West Ham owners causing hold ups. Some agents, believe it or not, can be pretty unreasonable with their demands too.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Knighter10WHU on Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:26 pm

sutts07 wrote:
I know I'm banging on like a broken record in this thread and playing devils advocate (sorry all), but it is this type of concern and hysteria that we are somehow going to lose him because we haven't sorted out a contract that I don't understand.

He is contracted to us until July 2020 and we can trigger a 12 month extension on that too.

We will get this deal done, the only point I am trying to make is that it may not just be the West Ham owners causing hold ups. Some agents, believe it or not, can be pretty unreasonable with their demands too.


I just think the top sides will be monitoring this situation very closely.

Say this drags on for 2 more months into January, Declan keeps playing a blinder and starts to get a bit annoyed at the lack of a new deal (as you rightly say this may be due to agents work not the owners). The agent and Man City (as an example) have a quiet word in his ear and say: "Look, you kick up a fuss saying that you don't want to be at WHU anymore, we'll swoop in with a derogatory bid of £10M to give WHU some compensation and offer you £10k more than whatever WHU offer you" will he really turn that down? The chance to play for the best club in the country and in Europe?

I'd love to say Rice is loyal and wouldn't do something similar to Payet but football is a business nowadays.

I wish I had your confidence but with our owners I just don't.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby sutts07 on Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:01 pm

Knighter10WHU wrote:I just think the top sides will be monitoring this situation very closely.


If the top clubs such as Man City want him they will turn his head regardless of a new contract. And the point I am making is that there is no situation to monitor. It is just hysteria in the media being swalloed up by our fans.

Rice is contracted to us until the end of the 19/20 season as it stands and we can trigger a 12 month extension. Basically, he is not going anywhere any time soon unless we decide to sell him. It is not for Rice to accept or decline a Man City offer if he is under contract with West Ham.

And even if we did decide to sell him, why would we accept 10m for him from a club notorious for paying over the odds for top young talent? Especially if he is only on 3k a week...??

This is purely hypothetical now and in no way am I saying it 'should' happen but...
If a 19 year old with a handful of games under his belt wants to hold a gun to our head and play 'lose / lose' then I'd let him sit on the fringes for two and a half years earning a fraction of what he has been offered.

Rice is emerging as a top talent and one that I have no doubt we will pin down for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:46 pm

sutts the same way we let Payet go for half price...

didn't we "sit him down in the reserves" or actually let him train with the youngsters.

Sully really played hardball there..... you let him sit and your investment decreases every week.

it's a bit of a catch 22..the players looks better when he's playing......but you don't want him playing great and attracting the attention of other clubs...but you really want him to play for your team to be successful.

all he has to do is say "I don't want to be here..." teams don't usually play players who are unhappy. except Mahrez.

they don't normally stay long either. player's agents will know what the market is, what the interest is and the power now is in the hands of the player. gone are the days when you could tell a Bobby Moore, "nope son, you're staying....."

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Re: Declan Rice

Postby west ham morgan on Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:05 am

Do we expect him to be in the England squad tomorrow? Or will Rooney have taken his place?
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Crouchend_Hammer on Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:24 am

I am not sure he will be in this one but I think England will cap him, or try to, in the next round of Euro league games
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Knighter10WHU on Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:01 am

sutts07 wrote:Rice is contracted to us until the end of the 19/20 season as it stands and we can trigger a 12 month extension. Basically, he is not going anywhere any time soon unless we decide to sell him. It is not for Rice to accept or decline a Man City offer if he is under contract with West Ham.


If Rice wants to leave he will. Payet is one of a long list of many examples that have kicked up a fuss and left if a better option is put on the table.

For me, if Rice wants leave he will regardless of what his contract situation is, I would just prefer to see him tied down to a more lucrative contract to A - keep him happy for a while longer and B - to ensure we get a better transfer fee for him when he eventually does move to a bigger club.

Do you think Rice will still be a West Ham player in 3/4 years time?
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Clacton-ammer on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:20 pm

Knighter10WHU wrote:
Do you think Rice will still be a West Ham player in 3/4 years time?


Depends if we keep making progress, buying the right players, win or at least get close to winning a cup. He also has to keep making the same progress, I think we all see that he is going to be one hell of a player though, but he needs to keep his head right and let his football do the talking. Which he is, in bucket loads currently. Internationally I think Southgate will give him a chance if he keeps progressing, so he does not have to move to get recognised, a big plus for sides like us.

I read this morning that Man City may be looking at him. I think if I was running West Ham I would get the contract sorted, it would be a gamble paying him 30/40k a week now, but I think a calculated gamble that will pay off.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby sutts07 on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:37 pm

I did clearly say...

This is purely hypothetical now and in no way am I saying it 'should' happen


Rice will not stamp his feet and demand a move, and we will not let this drag on to the point that he becomes unhappy.

We will get this contract sorted and Rice will continue to grow with us for the next few seasons. How much he grows and how much we grow will all depend on how long he stays.

For now though, there is no need to panic on this. I have no doubt it will get sorted out and any reported unrest is just media nonsense.

I'd imagine we will have a look at Diangana's contract before long too, especially if he keeps going the way he currently is.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Hamburger on Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:28 pm

.
Perhaps they should have a different type of contract for non first team players i.e. if you start the season as an U23 player, you get extra money if you make the first team bench (+£500?) and more if you play (another £500?), that's it, signed and sealed. This way contracts for young players can only be negotiated out of season and finalised before it starts. Or perhaps if you make the first team for 4 matches, you get a new fixed salary of say £10k per week, non negotiable until end of season then a new contract can be reviewed (up or down aka Oxford!). Young players don't begrudge older players their £40k pw, they know they have done their time but agents will exploit any opportunity in the name of 'doing best for my client'.

All I'm saying is there must be creative ways to 'fix the goal posts' so that greedy, disruptive agents can't bully or ransom clubs to renegotiate. I don't deny that the likes of Rice deserve more but this open ended posturing is not helpful to his football or the club's. We could have Diangana's agent rubbing his hands and soon after Holland's and our management will be spending all their time sorting out agent bllsht.

The whole youth to first team issue needs reforming.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:52 pm

thing is that no one has brought up yet...

academy kids are like Bosmans....

they don't cost a penny. so even if you pay me ( :D ) for example 40K per plus plus, you have saved on a transfer fee of say 15M which in today's market isn't much at all.

we thought nothing of paying Wilshere his going rate (England International etc.) and we "saved" on a transfer fee, actually his signing on fee would have been pretty large so we saved some.

so it's a win/win for any club giving Academy kids a pretty decent wage. whatever they get isn't going to be as much as a first teamer/full international etc. etc. but you have saved a HUGE amount of dosh.

now Rice isn't at the Loftus-Cheek, Abrahams level yet (not full England International) but isn't far from it. how much to buy either one ?

how much are THEY earning ? I would guess in the 20-30K range maybe more with a minimum fee of 25-30+M.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Kev59 on Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:15 pm

It's not all down to Rice whether he seeks a move. If one of the "big" clubs comes to Sullivan and waves £25m under his nose in January, would he accept it? I'm sure he would, then say that it was all down to DR for running down his contract and the fear of losing him on a Bosman.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby sutts07 on Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:27 pm

For Declan to 'run down' his contract, he will have to sit on 3k per week for the next two and a half years... if he is reportedly being offered 20-25k as it stands, that would be a bit of a stupid play by him.

Take the new contract, get your head down and earn yourself a big move in the same way the likes of Rio did.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Coops on Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:42 pm

Anybody who doesn't think that Sully would turn down £30M upfront hasn't been paying attention.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby pharaoh on Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:06 pm

Cuenca 'ammer wrote:thing is that no one has brought up yet...

academy kids are like Bosmans....

they don't cost a penny. so even if you pay me ( :D ) for example 40K per plus plus, you have saved on a transfer fee of say 15M which in today's market isn't much at all.


Not quite true as it costs to bring these players up; facilities, coaches, staff, wages etc. Plus you have to take into account all the players that don't make it (the majority) that haven't earned you a penny but have cost you. So it's not like paying £40m for a player but there is still money involved.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:46 pm

pharoah

if you want an Academy, you need staff......ergo you need to have them there whether or not you discover someone....

or one can do what Newcastle did that time and dump their reserve team.

so really your staff is an essential overhead virtually...ANY player that comes through is "free."

I bet that the money we got for Burke, the money we will get for Cullen will pay for the Academy to run for a year.

all you need is ONE kid to come through and get a fee for and you're made in the shade.

Tomkins 10M paid for 3 years of the Academy.

of course we could always do away with the Academy and the rest.

don't also forget that you can write off money for the training ground over the u-23's, u-18's, u-16's as well.

it's a paper shuffling exercise.

right now Rice is worth the 2M we paid for Sanchez and his wages. make that about 4M this year alone. so therefore the Academy is paid for for this year for producing Rice. Plus we didn't have to sign someone to cover for Sanchez.

Now add Diagana...

AND if either goes on a free we get compensation based on their appearances, International appearances etc. but he only came here 3 years ago so there won't be that much in compo.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:53 pm

sutts


All Rice has to do is say, "I have no intention of signing a new contract."

Now Sully can decide, as I has stated before, leave him in the reserves @ 3K per week OR sell him.

the longer he leaves him the more his value decreases a la Payet. so Sully says "I HAD to take 20M because that's all we were offered, he only wanted to go to xxxxxxxxx so I had no choice."

Players hold ALL of the power these days.

Make no mistake, there's NO WAY that Rice sits in the reserves collecting 3K. IF Sully does that, then we know that Pellers doesn't pick the team, don't we ? And I have no thought other than it's the manager. Are we/will we be a better with Rice in the team ? Yes. So for Pellers it's a no brainer. He says "I pick the team, contract negotiations are the Boss' not mine. I just pick the team."

Ain't going to happen. Suppose they dug their heels in over an Arnie contract, we sit him in the reserves ? nope. say what Leicester said to Mahrez. Play out the season and you'll get your wish. Did they sit him ?

Nope.
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Re: Declan Rice

Postby sutts07 on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:11 am

sutts07 wrote:This is purely hypothetical now


We can both play devils advocate all we like but all it will do is create more hysteria around what for me is a non story that gathers pace with each great game the lad has.

I have every confidence that Rice will soon sign a new and improved contract with us. He seems to be very happy at West Ham, we are giving him game time and bringing him on as a player.

Best to focus on his performances and wait for the inevitable good news on his contract.
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