Hillsborough

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Re: Hillsborough

Postby mushy on Mon May 13, 2019 12:55 pm

Crossd_Hammrs wrote:Why would so many Leicester fans turn up at West Ham v Charlton?


It was Charlton v Leicester played at Upton Park.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Crossd_Hammrs on Mon May 13, 2019 12:57 pm

goa127 wrote:I think Leicester were playing vCharlton. West Ham weren't playing, but it was at the Boleyn

That makes sense - I'd thought the ground share was later than that. Thanks Goa127 & Mushy.

EDIT
Re-reading the quoted comment, I think I read too many comments too quickly and for some reason thought that was 1990.
I remember they shared Selhurst Park for a while, my memory of them at our place ids pretty vague. Did Palace play a few home games at the BG too?
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Samba on Tue May 14, 2019 5:01 am

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote:Hillsborough safety officer Graham Mackrell, so far the only person to have been found guilty of any offence, has been fined £6,500 for 'unsafe turnstile arrangements' on the day.

It appears that what the victims relatives/campaigners want or wanted, is unlikely to end up being what they actually get.
We don't even know yet if Duckenfield will be retried.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Tue May 14, 2019 11:22 am

"I remember going to Charlton away in the early nineties when they were playing at Upton Park. They allowed Leicester fans to buy tickets on the turn styles as they knew Charlton wouldn't fill the ground. The only problem was they allowed all the Leicester fans through the away end behind the goal. I was around 10 when this happened and was standing right at the front. I remember being pushed against the wall at the front but luckily the fences had been taken down because of Hillsborough so the fans ran across the pitch into a empty stand. I remember the local newspaper saying Leicester took close to 15000 to the Charlton game and if those fences were still up it would of been another Hillsborough disaster. RIP to the 96 I hope your family's find justice!"

That's from an earlier post quoting a Leicester fan. Point of order - we never, ever had fences at the Boleyn. Thankfully. I don't know how we avoided it mind, what with the shenanigans off the pitch in the 70s and 80s. Thankfully they never had fences at Loftus Road either otherwise the nation might remember a cup fixture that we had there to this day.

The bloke gets fined £6,500? That's nearly £68 per victim. :thdn: Hopefully they re-try Duckenfield the nauseating, useless, piece of ... (oh, I've used that smilie altready) from a lying, corrupt, cynical, cover-up-the-truth police force.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Puff Daddy on Tue May 14, 2019 7:15 pm

Only by some miracle, was another potential disaster avoided at that same ground 8 years earlier in an FA Cup semi final between Spurs and Wolves. Check out the scenes in the Leppings Land end in this footage here:-

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sp ... &FORM=VIRE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby westham,eggyandchips on Tue May 14, 2019 7:25 pm

Its going over old ground, but I always go back to why fences were put up in the first place?

Some of the hero worship given to thugs of our club and others astounds me. :thdn:
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Sauce! on Tue May 14, 2019 8:57 pm

westham,eggyandchips wrote:Its going over old ground, but I always go back to why fences were put up in the first place?

Some of the hero worship given to thugs of our club and others astounds me. :thdn:


It’s nice to see we have all moved on...

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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Clacton-ammer on Thu May 16, 2019 11:27 am

Ok, I don't agree with the hero worship, not sure I have seen hero worship for years to be fair, but yes there has been. The likes of the ICF & others have made a living out of it, fair play to them for taking advantage of it. Society was very different then, music, government, all played a role in what happened and is somewhat understated on how much of a role it played.

Football back then was a very different animal, as someone who went in those times as a young un with my mates, on more than a few occasions I was always delighted to see some of our mob. It was ****ing scary at times, you saw them, you knew your chances of getting away with a hiding were significantly higher.

Our lot were for many years the best at it, it's part of our history & many other teams, good & bad.

People not living it, or seeing it from those times look at Liverpool now as they were whiter than white at Hillsborough, all the authorities fault. For sure the authorities / media ****ed up and should be brought to task, no arguments, but I will stand by that Liverpool supporters played their part in the tragedy.

Football has moved on thankfully, that we can all agree on.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Estuary on Thu May 16, 2019 12:17 pm

A complex issue, but my two bobs worth is that the root cause was that politicians, police, the FA, football clubs and society at large saw football supporters first and foremost through the prism of public order issues and gave no regard to public safety.

I think anyone who traveled away in 70's and 80's will have similar stories, your rights as a citizen where suspended the moment you attend a football match.

One of the lesser explored issues at the time was that regular games were nearly all pay on the door, but these cup semi's and other marquee games were all ticket, so reasonably supporters would arrive far later to games as they had a ticket that guaranteed entry, that's why the surges at gates occurred, and S Wednesday, the FA and Old Bill on the day should have known and planned for this, they didn't, the rest is history.

You can level the victims charge at the dippers, but not because they had a hand in the deaths of the 96, but because of Hysel, and how they tried to wriggle out of their central role in that. Hillsborough is all on the authorities, they failed in their first duty, to provide a safe environment for the public to watch the event, they then compounded that fact by lying about the events surrounding the day, amplifying the establishment position re football supporters being a public order menace with smears via leaks to the media in a desperate attempt to deflect the basic fact that the stadium was not fit for purpose and that greed and incompetence had rode hand in hand and led to the deaths of 96 innocent people.

I don't like Liverpool as a club, but that's nothing to do with Hillsborough, which at the time given how supporters were treated could have been any of us.

PS- This public order view still pervades football today, its at the heart of issues we have with how the LS is stewarded, and enables outrageous treatment of people who have done nothing wrong at all.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Marky on Thu May 16, 2019 12:21 pm

I completely agree with that bit
Last edited by Up the Junction on Fri May 17, 2019 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Large quote removed.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby westham,eggyandchips on Fri May 17, 2019 7:38 am

Estuary wrote:A complex issue, but my two bobs worth is that the root cause was that politicians, police, the FA, football clubs and society at large saw football supporters first and foremost through the prism of public order issues and gave no regard to public safety.

I think anyone who traveled away in 70's and 80's will have similar stories, your rights as a citizen where suspended the moment you attend a football match.


Its a chicken and egg scenario. What came first, mistreatment by the authorities towards ALL fans- innocent or not. Or some fans of football clubs causing trouble at football grounds and surrounding towns and cities?
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby old fart on Fri May 17, 2019 2:44 pm

Football was watched and teams supported for years by thousands without segregation without all- ticket matches, season tickets were a rarity, could go to any game you wanted, the thugs spoilt it for me and thousands of others you can't blame it on the authorities
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby westham,eggyandchips on Fri May 17, 2019 5:20 pm

old fart wrote:Football was watched and teams supported for years by thousands without segregation without all- ticket matches, season tickets were a rarity, could go to any game you wanted, the thugs spoilt it for me and thousands of others you can't blame it on the authorities

Exactly my point OF. :thup:
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby ornchurch ammer on Fri May 17, 2019 6:38 pm

old fart wrote:Football was watched and teams supported for years by thousands without segregation without all- ticket matches, season tickets were a rarity, could go to any game you wanted, the thugs spoilt it for me and thousands of others you can't blame it on the authorities


You cant blame it ALL on the authorities but football supporters were the ONLY group of people treated like **** when attending matches, and to a certain extent still are.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby old fart on Fri May 17, 2019 8:06 pm

Not before the thugs they weren't
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby ornchurch ammer on Fri May 17, 2019 8:42 pm

Not saying they were as I wasn't around in those days but from when I started going away in the early 80's every supporter was regarded as a hooligan whether they were or not and treated appallingly, especially by plod.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Fri May 17, 2019 9:02 pm

one of the best reads was about Italia 90



All Played Out - Pete Davies

talked about the fans being walked all the way back from one of the venues. the plod wouldn't let them get any kind of transport. one quote I seem to remember is:

Treat people like animals and they will behave like animals.

they pushed and shoved them around and really gave the fans the crap treatment and then "were surprised" when fans reacted poorly and fought back.

a really brilliant read.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby e17 on Sat May 18, 2019 2:20 am

Agree with that being a brilliant read :thup:

The definite book on the subject matter of this thread for me is “and the sun shines now” by Adrian Tempany, from his first hand account of being seconds from death at Hillsborough, to his then factual and numerical analysis of why it happened and what came before & after it, it’s the best book about being a football supporter, from hoolies to ID cards to all seaters & Sky’s arrival - can’t recommend it enough
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby e17 on Sat May 18, 2019 2:26 am

on that subject: Football, like music, owes a massive debt to disco biscuits
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby westham,eggyandchips on Sat May 18, 2019 7:04 am

e17 wrote:on that subject: Football, like music, owes a massive debt to disco biscuits

So the drugs do work?! :)
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