West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby hammer1975 on Fri May 03, 2019 7:43 pm

:thup:
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby BSB1 on Fri May 10, 2019 1:48 pm

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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby hammerman11 on Fri May 10, 2019 5:34 pm

you have to be stupid to sign up for this ! does anyone think gsb even look at it. all they care about is the money it makes them.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby Northbank Bar on Fri May 10, 2019 5:48 pm

Hammers United are looking at this in depth.A detailed report will be on here in the next few days.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby hammerman11 on Fri May 10, 2019 5:50 pm

easiest way is advice everyone not to buy the tokens.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby Big George on Tue May 14, 2019 12:11 pm

Socios have updated teir FAQs to show you what you will be getting for your money and what the risks are

https://www.socios.com/socios-com-faqs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A lot of this comes fro the brilliant Uglygame on twitter https://twitter.com/uglygame/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For some reason the account is private so you will have to request to follow. These are the key points he has pulled out.

How many votes will there be and will they be binding or non-binding on the club?

Clubs have committed to an unspecified number of binding and non-binding votes. (Though it remains unclear how binding a binding vote is.)

What things will be voted on?

TBC. Examples of potential votes: man of the match, kit and crest design, location of summer friendlies.

Can you own more than one token?

Yes - as many as you like. Each token gives more voting power, although an unspecified limited will be in force for each vote.

It seems to me a curious type of fan democracy where a rich person's vote can carry ten times the weight of others'.

How much will each token cost?

TBC. Intriguingly, though, the language used - 'initial fan token sale' - uses that of a tech IPO. The impression created is that fans who buy in at 'FTO' stage will be getting an asset that appreciates in value.

Note that it does not explicitly say that you are getting a product at below its retail price.

In fact, it looks to me that the value of tokens will be set by the resale market which is denominated in the company's own cryptocurrency.

I'm a novice with cryptocurrencies, but my understanding is that they've been pretty volatile over the years, soaring and crashing.

In theory, then, your token might end up being worth many times the price you paid for it, or it might end up being essentially worthless.

Can you get your money out?


Yes. You can sell your token on the exchange, for whatever value you can get, and then convert it back to your original currency. I don't know enough about the system to know if the exchange rate between your currency and the crypto changes over time.

What does this all mean?


Too soon to say for sure. But the criticism that clubs are aiming to charge fans for what they could give away free now is 100% correct. This is just voting. The technology has existed for years to do this.

And, yes, people who aren't fans of your club would appear to be able to buy in and vote on issues affecting your club, with wealthier people having a louder voice.

I can't understand the need for all of the associated crypto and blockchain tech to deliver fan voting.

It seems possible to me that, by reserving to itself a significant proportion of the tokens and hoping the secondary market rises dramatically, that the company could make a large profit.

I might have misunderstood the system, however.
To date, nothing has changed my initial impression that clubs won't agree to allow voting on juicy things and that minor votes should be put to fans for free.

I struggle to believe this venture will raise significant sums for clubs or attract many fans unless priced in pennies.


In my view there is nothing good in this. Fans will be asked to pay for something that guarantees them nothing.

The club say the OSB is the only fans they will engage with, unless you pay to have vote pre season friendly (Marbella for me), club crest, third kit. makes the OSB even more pointless if that's possible.

There's also the danger that West ham supporters who neither understand nor wish to invest in this wild west market could be lured into a financial transaction they may not understand, exposing them to losing their money. Who will be responsible for this? The club? Malta based Socios? You can bet there will be some pretty small print that leaves the fan with the loss.

Anyone interested in blockchain will already be in, this seems to be a ploy to attract unsophisticated investors into a sophisticated market that may expose them to losses.

I would say it's a joke but I don't think it's very funny.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby the pink palermo on Tue May 14, 2019 12:28 pm

I'm with George on this.

If it looks dodgy, feels dodgy, smells dodgy, it probably is dodgy.

How much of her own personal money does Baroness Karren Brady of Knightsbridge have invested in this scheme ?

How much does her daughter or son have ?

If the answer is none, the supporters should follow suit.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Tue May 14, 2019 12:52 pm

reo_coker20 wrote:The osb didn’t know anything about this


You can't be surprised by that.

The way's it's going don't be too surprised if before long you have to pay for your place on the OSB. In the light of this thread it seems a natural progression and I'd be fine with that. Imho everyone on the OSB is doing a dis-service to those they 'represent'. They are part of a pretence that the OSB is representative of the fans and/ or or are deluded enough to believe that it's a genuine attempt by the club to gain their views. I'd be all for OSB 'representatives' being fleeced for a few grand a year to be part of it.

Anyway, back to this. It's been posted in detail in the words of the company behind this. This is a scheme to, in their words, to monetise the fans. No **** Sherlock. The club say it will be used for "selected'' decisions. Lets guess whether any of those select questions will be on matters of importance. If anyone hasn't worked out the answer to that one by now they deserve all they get. The club is relying on the old and trusted adage regarding a fool and their money.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby the pink palermo on Tue May 14, 2019 1:17 pm

DaveWHU1964 wrote: Imho everyone on the OSB is doing a dis-service to those they 'represent'. They are part of a pretence that the OSB is representative of the fans and/ or or are deluded enough to believe that it's a genuine attempt by the club to gain their views.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby Turns to Stone on Tue May 14, 2019 1:32 pm

I've said it before when it comes to managers. The only people that I'd really like working at West Ham are ones that wouldn't be prepared to work with our owners. And as you can imagine, that kind of puts us in a difficult position.

It's the same with the OSB, I'm sure it's a great honour and a source of great pride for fans who have followed our club all their lives to be a part of. But joining the OSB mans that you're getting in bed with the owners and really all you're doing is being part of their marketing campaign to make more money off the rest of us.

I haven't spent a single penny on West Ham (directly) since Bilic left. I don't plan on doing so whilst the owners remain at the club. Sadly, I can't see them selling up any time soon so that's it. My son will have to put with Folkestone Invicta for a while.

Again though, I have no ill feeling towards anyone that does it, as it's your choice and your money, but I just hope that people don't think that any of that money is helping to do anything other than make our owners and their families richer and has nothing to do with the success of West Ham United.
Last edited by Turns to Stone on Tue May 14, 2019 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby sussexhammer74 on Tue May 14, 2019 1:34 pm

That, Big George, is quite frightening and scary.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby hammerman11 on Tue May 14, 2019 2:19 pm

go and watch west ham yes
buy from the club store no
buy programme no
buy food at ground no
buy beer at the ground no
buy popcorn etc at the ground no
buy a token for this scheme no

don't give them anything bar your ticket money.
drink/eat at local pubs and cafes support the local community.dont visit westfield.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Tue May 14, 2019 2:38 pm

not digging you out mate but:

West Ham earn £126.4m from Premier League season

for not getting to a cup final of any shape. and not getting into Europe.

according to our mates over at * & * who to be fair, do give a reasoned explanation.

I also think we get next to nothing from food and drink sales or a negligible amount as someone else is contracted in aren't they ?

the token thing goes directly to them, after I presume the partner take their share.

that's why we want to stay aboard the gravy train.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby Big George on Tue May 14, 2019 2:43 pm

Cuenca 'ammer wrote:not digging you out mate but:

West Ham earn £126.4m from Premier League season

for not getting to a cup final of any shape. and not getting into Europe.

according to our mates over at * & * who to be fair, do give a reasoned explanation.

I also think we get next to nothing from food and drink sales or a negligible amount as someone else is contracted in aren't they ?

the token thing goes directly to them, after I presume the partner take their share.

that's why we want to stay aboard the gravy train.


They did the deals, let them find the money. if they don't get the revenue from food drink etc, it's their fault.

What they shouldn't be doing is coming up with cockamamie schemes to extract more cash from supporters.
Last edited by Big George on Tue May 14, 2019 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby RichieRiv on Tue May 14, 2019 2:51 pm

the pink palermo wrote:I'm with George on this.

If it looks dodgy, feels dodgy, smells dodgy, it probably is dodgy.

How much of her own personal money does Baroness Karren Brady of Knightsbridge have invested in this scheme ?

How much does her daughter or son have ?

If the answer is none, the supporters should follow suit.


I think its a bit late to take the moral high ground when it comes to the funding of football and specifically our club.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby Tross on Tue May 14, 2019 2:54 pm

Time To Engage

For decades, football had remained a sport with a pre-dominantly local, restricted audience, governed by the number of people who could enter the stadium. It was the national game of the working man, where on a Saturday afternoon a few coins at a turnstile afforded a few hours escapism from the dreary everyday, and a subliminal flirt with tribalism supporting your local team against a rival.

Communities were united, friendships were forged, heroes and villains were cast and on rare occasions legends were born.

The financial dynamic, or football as a business as we’ve come to know it, changed somewhat in the seventies with TV money, and then irreversibly with the huge influx of Satellite and Cable TV money in the nineties, enabling the beautiful game to be beamed globally with matches monetised. The restricted audience was no more, and the game was now global.

The cash rich days of football clubs, where many a shifty owner roamed and money was easily laundered were disappearing, The count ups of gate receipts and matchday takings under the stands during and post-game, meticulously triple checked prior to being deposited in the club safe over the weekend before being banked on a Monday morning, though not superfluous, were no longer fundamental to the financial well-being of those clubs in the upper echelons of English football.

This is what is referred to as a paradigm shift, whereby the standard or commonly accepted way of thinking about or doing something changes and is replaced by something new or different.

If we fast forward through listening to the radio, grabbing a copy of the Evening News, using the phone box, a few FA Cups, through teletext, coming third in 86, and the first mobile phones, we’ll promptly arrive in 2019 with social media now representing the latest paradigm shift in how we choose to communicate with each other and digest news and “content”.

It’s critically important that we as West Ham fans recognise just how important Social Media actually is and just how incredibly powerful it’s become. If you’re still unconvinced, consider that in the time you’ve spent reading what I’ve written, over 350,000 twitter “tweets” have been made, and over 30 million messages sent on Facebook - it’s nothing short of a phenomenon.

It’s with that in mind I felt compelled to write this piece to draw attention to the partnership that our club, led in this instance by its Digital and Commercial Officer Karim Virani, has signed up to with Socios.com.

You may have missed the article on the club’s website and there was limited debate on kumb.com - The article which is here https://www.whufc.com/news/articles/2019/april/30-april/west-ham-united-agree-partnership-socioscom , talks of the excitement and delight at the opportunity to explore state of the art digital platforms and give fans who live a mile or a thousand miles away, the best possible experience. . . (the best possible experience I’ll come back to another day) but what really set off a red flag for me, was the statement by Alexandre Dreyfus, the CEO of Socios.com which I quote straight from the original article on whufc.com :-

“Having a club like West Ham United adopt fan voting is a big step in realising our goal of building the world’s biggest global football community and marketplace for football fans, alongside demonstrating that blockchain and cryptocurrency is the trusted technology of the mainstream.
"We will be announcing more European partners very soon, and hope more Premier League clubs will follow West Ham’s leadership in creating best-in-class fan engagement.”


Mr Dreyfuss is an admirable and incredibly interesting man – a Fintech investor with a background in online poker and gaming, who has leveraged a network that seemingly stems across some of Europe’s most powerful families, to build up and then sell his interests in a .com and gaming type businesses.

These past six years his focus has been on Mediarex, a British Virgin Islands registered entity that provides a number of different on-line, livestream interactive poker games and tournaments via a type of global identification system, pioneering a platform that hosts Poker Leagues, and Chiliz, a most interesting organisation that believes in a concept known as “Radical Fan Engagement” which it wants to achieve through the use of its “Crowd Control” Engine.

I do of course appreciate that I’m just a regular football fan, doing a sixty hour week, and am not particularly well versed in the digital world, however terms and language that I find distasteful, such as “crowd control” and “radical” do little to assist me in envisaging a better fan experience, tending instead to make the hairs I no longer have on the back of my neck stand up, virtually at least.

What I believe should be of great concern to every West Ham fan, and any other fan whose club looks to take this route, is that blockchain and cryptocurrency certainly is NOT the trusted technology of today – quite on the contrary, it’s still a relatively fresh form of digital technology that generally prevails independently of government authorities or private institutions. There is absolutely no central server, no administrator, no national boundary, no owner, and it is at the forefront of conversations about the future of democracy, money, legislation, personal information, health, security, insurance, and more – to the degree that some people are even discussing whether it could cause a major disruption to the global and national traditional infrastructures we all depend upon to conduct our everyday lives.

Perhaps it should be of little wonder that such an elusive to regulate technology is being championed by an organisation that sees its leaders battle hardened after years of creating business models that to survive, had to remain one step ahead of legislation.

More to the point, I’d hazard the vast majority of West Ham fans care precious little for the goals and objectives of Socios. Chiliz or Mediarex, and their apparent quest to change the way that fans enjoy football. What I (and they) do care about is West Ham United Football Club and its legions of long suffering fans who again appear to have been completely circumvented by the club as it ploughs forward with another decision that can have a major impact on their footballing experience and relationship with the club, without any prior consultation with them, its core supporter base.

Now I’m a firm believer in improving fan engagement, and fan experience, it’s one of the reasons that I joined Hammers United and proudly sit on its committee.

But what I most strongly object to is the further monetisation of supporters without consultation, whilst the continually ignored points that the four thousand supporters that I and my fellow committee members represent, are being ignored wholesale.

I remain dismayed at the total apathy and disrespect that the current board and its officers continue to show all West Ham fans by making decisions like this without any consultation whatsoever to its fans.

The thought of children having to pressure economically challenged parents to purchase tokens so they can game with or influence the West Ham virtual brand, well surely that has to present ethical questions which at least are deserving of debate? They certainly should draw the attentions of the gambling commission whose own code states protecting children and other vulnerable persons from being harmed or exploited by gambling is at its heart.

I would also have expected any kind of application led activity that can influence outcomes at a football club would entail the utmost of scrutiny from respective governing and legislative bodies, and yet there has been barely a whimper from them on this - on behalf of our members and fans everywhere, Hammer United will actively be encouraging them to introspect and help to provide some visibility and understanding here.

In a manner which has become synonymous with the dubious custodians our great club currently has at the helm, we appear to be being frog-marched through the gateway Blockchain technology presents here – well this chap, and the four thousand members behind him are mutineering, and dropping the blockchain and anchor on this one.

We believe that the database of our fans at West Ham United is an extremely valuable asset in its own right and stands at circa seven hundred thousand members according to our club source. Unlike most other “customer” databases, West Ham fans (and all football fans in fairness) have both great love and loyalty to their club and are commonly recognised as being incredibly emotional when engaged. To open any commercial platform, enabling a third-party organisation to manipulate its loyal fans when they’re at their most emotionally vulnerable state raises a number of further questions of ethics which we believe are worthy of debate.

The thought of running mini-ICO’s to fund player purchases, to raise money for tournaments and choosing the team – these are not commodities that the club in our opinion has the right to sell.

We and our members believe that as football fans, we have basic rights of entitlement, and it is these that are seemingly being thrown up for grabs, commoditised and monetised, giving way to sections of our support becoming further alienated from the club they love.

That is completely unacceptable.

I feel it timely to remind our CEO and her Digital & Commercial officer that West Ham fans do not take kindly to the custodians of its club behaving like voraciously mercantile, privacy invading offshoots of the KGB, hiding behind a wordy privacy policy that most of its supporters do not understand.

They would do well to remember that its loyal supporters expect to be treated with respect for the love they have, the time served support they have given, and for the commercial contribution they continue to make to the football club.

The last time West Ham fans believed they were being unfairly commercialised, Karen was selling space in the soft-porn vehicle that was the misogynistic The Daily Sport, Karim was still at primary school and Alexandre hadn’t picked up his first deck of cards. The actions of the then custodians of our great club triggered the bond scheme protests of November 1991 – perhaps a quick call into Peter Storrie down under would provide a seemingly much needed history lesson and a heads up on how not to treat the West Ham faithful.

Accordingly, I will be writing to both Karim Varani and to Karen Brady on behalf of Hammers United, again seeking an audience to discuss these most disturbing matters.

Tross
8-)
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Tue May 14, 2019 3:22 pm

BG

was merely pointing out that even if no one spends anything in the ground, it probably isn't going to make a difference as the stuff is contracted out isn't it ?

so the only ones to "get nothing" are the vendors. they probably pass on a minimal amount considering there's 60K people in the ground spending I don't know, average 5 quid a pop (probably more) is only 350, 000 quid less costs. club isn't going to get rich on that.

that's why they contracted it out. get something if there's a profit, lose nothing if no one spends a single sou.
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby Phil S on Tue May 14, 2019 3:36 pm

Tross, that is magnificent mate

Deserves to be on the front page
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby Big George on Tue May 14, 2019 4:03 pm

Cuenca 'ammer wrote:BG

was merely pointing out that even if no one spends anything in the ground, it probably isn't going to make a difference as the stuff is contracted out isn't it ?

so the only ones to "get nothing" are the vendors. they probably pass on a minimal amount considering there's 60K people in the ground spending I don't know, average 5 quid a pop (probably more) is only 350, 000 quid less costs. club isn't going to get rich on that.

that's why they contracted it out. get something if there's a profit, lose nothing if no one spends a single sou.


Fair enough
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Re: West Ham say pay to have your say in club affairs

Postby Marlow Vaderman on Wed May 15, 2019 10:45 am

The implications of this reverberate well beyond West Ham United. This is the future of football as we know it. We have to say enough is enough. The end game here is frightening. Data harvesting and consumer targeting. Perhaps one day football will be played behind closed doors as a social media event. More money into the clubs without the inconvenience of the general public to police and keep safe.
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