Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by Chicken Run Supreme »

I desperately wanted Holland to win last night as I have always thought them too good to have never have won the WC and remember very well the great team they had in the 70's that SHOULD have won at least one of the 74 an 78 tournaments. However, for one reason or another, since the Spanish game, Holland have gone backwards in this competition and in all fairness had used up all their lives against Mexico and Costa Rica. Last night's game could have been fast-forwarded to a penalty shootout from the off and saved us all a lot of pain - awful, awful match that Argentina probably did just about enough to shade it by a Rizla's width,

Onwards and upwards though, Argentina all the way now, screw the Germans.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by QuintonNimoy »

_fortunes_ wrote:...that determines a final result irrespective of how well you played and/or who is the best side.
Shootouts definitely have little to do with who the better side were during the game. Attributes that are useful during the normal game become liabilities, England have regularly put the wrong man on the penalty spot. Rather than a lottery though, it's really a completely different game, one that successfully produces a winner in relatively short order.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots »

Louis van Gaal says no-one wanted first penalty
Netherlands coach Louis van Gaal says two of his players refused to take the first penalty in their World Cup semi-final shootout defeat by Argentina.
Defender Ron Vlaar stepped up but Sergio Romero - a player who was "taught how to stop penalties" by Van Gaal at AZ Alkmaar - saved his kick.
Bottlers. He doesn't name the two cowards, but I can take a reasonable guess.

I think it's a disgrace and LvG should name them, to warn prospective purchasers.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by QuintonNimoy »

I think if you don't want to take the first penalty, or any penalty, you shouldn't take it. Vlaar didn't exactly do them a favour by saying yes did he?

Should have been better prepared.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by warp »

Louis van Gaal says no-one wanted first penalty
Netherlands coach Louis van Gaal says two of his players refused to take the first penalty in their World Cup semi-final shootout defeat by Argentina.
Defender Ron Vlaar stepped up but Sergio Romero - a player who was "taught how to stop penalties" by Van Gaal at AZ Alkmaar - saved his kick.
Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote:Bottlers. He doesn't name the two cowards, but I can take a reasonable guess.

I think it's a disgrace and LvG should name them, to warn prospective purchasers.
it happened to ajax years ago in a champions league final too, some players didn't want to take the penalty (at all, not just the first), one of them was davids i think.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by Hambrosia Stu »

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote: Bottlers. He doesn't name the two cowards, but I can take a reasonable guess.

I think it's a disgrace and LvG should name them, to warn prospective purchasers.
It is a disgrace. And I agree about the naming them part. Vlaar gets stick, but at least he had the balls to stick his neck on the line. Those who refused did their country a far greater dis-service than Vlaar

So, it was Vlaar, Robben, Sneijder, and Kuyt who took the 4 they did take.
Who was down for the 5th, do we know?
If it was Huntelaar, fair enough, but I'd have thought he'd be in line for one, and would have thought that as he replaced Van Persie (who took the first in the Costa Rica shoot out), he'd have replaced him in taking the first penalty as well

I know it must be an incredibly stressful situation, but surely if you're a Dutch player, and know you have more natural ability than Ron Vlaar, you put your fears to one side and step up?
Self-importance coming before the team again, for Holland. I can't imagine many German players would ask not to take one....
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by QuintonNimoy »

Hambrosia Stu wrote:I know it must be an incredibly stressful situation, but surely if you're a Dutch player, and know you have more natural ability than Ron Vlaar, you put your fears to one side and step up?
Self-importance coming before the team again, for Holland. I can't imagine many German players would ask not to take one....
Not necessarily the correct motivation. Any player feeling that they must carry the weight of their country's expectation to do their duty is more likely to crack spectacularly than do the business. Gareth Southgate's exactly that type of personality, the very antithesis of a bottler, but he's highly strung, too wrapped up in the role of leadership, and put too much pressure on himself when it was his turn years ago. I imagine Vlaar may be cast in a similar mould.

If a player doesn't want to take it they shouldn't. If a player wants to take it for the wrong reasons they shouldn't. Only the management staff can have this insight, if Van Gaal didn't prepare it's his responsibility.

That he is clearly implying players are cowards and let him down personally doesn't speak well of his leadership, and it's a clear attempt to deflect blame from his own shortcomings.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by kielhammer »

The only positive thing i took out of last evenings boring game, that it has somehow made me feel a little better about how bad we Belgians played against Argentina in the last round. Especially since they were in the lead early and then really prevent you frim playing football.

I heard alot of Dutch journalists and analist laugh with Belgium and claim they would create much more,and in fact they created even less.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by claretcloggy »

kielhammer wrote:The only positive thing i took out of last evenings boring game, that it has somehow made me feel a little better about how bad we Belgians played against Argentina in the last round. Especially since they were in the lead early and then really prevent you frim playing football.

I heard alot of Dutch journalists and analist laugh with Belgium and claim they would create much more,and in fact they created even less.
you do realize that's because you were puffing your chests so much about how you were going to win the tournament? that's the vibe we got at least.

anyway we didn't deserve to win it, i was fairly relaxed during the game..didn't feel upset that we lost.we got a lot further than most people ever thought we would and that is more than good enough for me.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots »

It's just a thought, but is it remotely possible the refuseniks didn't want to take the first penalty because they wanted the glory shot, the winning kick.
Not for the first time, it's all about them not the team.
A kind of John Terry moment.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by the pink palermo »

How any professional team can be having debates as to who takes spot kicks is beyond me .

The matchday squad should be allocated numbers separate to their team shirts, simply 1-17 .

The Manager should make it clear the first spot kick taker is the player with the lowest number who is still on the pitch at the time the kicks are to be taken .

That way if some of his first five go off injured the players remaining or any that come on as subs know the sequence of who is taking the kicks when .

It's the Managers job to determine who does what job in a professional team not the job of the players to have a debate 20 seconds before hand .

LvG got it wrong .His responsibility , nobody elses.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by bobcar »

Hambrosia Stu wrote: Nothing that happened in that shoot out suggested the Dutch were going to have a chance of winning it, and they didn't, so anything but a lottery imo
Whilst I agree that penalty shoot outs are not just a lottery there is an awful lot of hindsight in your post. Good penalty takers do miss penalties sometimes and bad ones score them sometimes, if the first penalties had gone the other way (which is possible) then you could also come out with reasoning about how the Dutch were always going to win the shoot out. (Costa Rica were very good in their first shoot out not so good in the second, ditto the Dutch).
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by _fortunes_ »

"Hambrosia Stu"
Nothing that happened in that shoot out suggested the Dutch were going to have a chance of winning it, and they didn't, so anything but a lottery imo
bobcar wrote:Whilst I agree that penalty shoot outs are not just a lottery there is an awful lot of hindsight in your post. Good penalty takers do miss penalties sometimes and bad ones score them sometimes, if the first penalties had gone the other way (which is possible) then you could also come out with reasoning about how the Dutch were always going to win the shoot out. (Costa Rica were very good in their first shoot out not so good in the second, ditto the Dutch).
Tend to agree with bobcar here. Similar to what I've alluded to previously....Suggesting that only one set of variables is possible in penalty shootouts is like saying the number 7 doesn't have a chance at coming up in tonight's lottery draw after half the numbers have been drawn.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots »

How many of you, like me, thought "Why isn't it Robben or Sneijder taking the first one?" and also thought, as soon as we saw Vlaar's close up "He's not going to score this"?
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by kielhammer »

Nobody in Belgium claimed that we would win it, but players did come in the tournament with the positive attitude that they wanted to get as far as possible. Usually it is let's try and survive the groupstages, and that would be a succes,and now they felt dissapointed. A positive change in attitude. And seeing Dutch journalists criticise Belgium while themselves playing defensive counterattacking football sure was a novelty.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by _fortunes_ »

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote:How many of you, like me, thought "Why isn't it Robben or Sneijder taking the first one?" and also thought, as soon as we saw Vlaar's close up "He's not going to score this"?
This whole debacle couldn't have helped the Dutch in the lead up to, and during the actual penalty shootout too. Confidence seemed to have ebbed away.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by QuintonNimoy »

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote:It's just a thought, but is it remotely possible the refuseniks didn't want to take the first penalty because they wanted the glory shot, the winning kick.
Not for the first time, it's all about them not the team.
A kind of John Terry moment.
That would be pretty extreme behaviour if true. The Dutch often find a way to implode at a big competition though.
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by Jonah »

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote:and also thought, as soon as we saw Vlaar's close up "He's not going to score this"?
To be fair... he was bloody close.

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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by Sloffy »

theres another youtube of an amateur game abroad where the taker hits the bar, drops to his knees in despair, the keeper sprints off to celebrate with his team-mates and the ball, without touching anyone, backspins on the edge of the box, and dribbles back into the goal.

On this occasion, Vlaars pen actually hits his shoulder after the keeper saves it, therefore hes touched it twice and it would've been disallowed 8-)
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Re: Semi Finals: Netherlands v Argentina

Post by D C »

Argentina have defended suprisingly well given the personnel. Germany should have too much for them in forward areas though.
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