England v Iceland....

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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby the pink palermo on Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:50 pm

It was our mental fragility that shocked me more than anything .

The lack of confidence , the failure of technique when it was needed most .

Roys greatest failing was to not instil in the players a cohesive plan they all understood, could execute and had confidence in .

Basic management in any walk of life .He fluffed his lines .
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby JohnSissonsWasMyHero on Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:56 pm

"I think it's bad news for the English game"

"We're not creative enough; we're not positive enough"

"We'll go on getting bad results"

The opening words from THAT SONG from 20 years ago.

I have to ask myself whether or not anything will change unless some fundamental changes are made. I really don't think that appointing anyone from the Hodgson generation can possibly do that. I can't see how Allardyce will make any difference either.

We need a manager for the national side who can be forward thinking, can be willing to do whatever is needed to win and who will pick the right players, in the right positions and who are actually playing in the right way to achieve what we all want.

As a big rugby fan, I got increasingly worried and then upset by Stuart Lancaster as England coach. He increasingly displayed all the characteristics of Hodgson and the result ended up by being, in many aspects, more catastrophic than Hodgson managed - knocked out of our "own" World Cup in the group stage, the first host ever to suffer that.

England bit the bullet and replaced him with Eddie Jones. He took largely the same players, played them in the right positions, gave them the right encouragement (or a good mental kicking if necessary) and turned them from a group of good players who could occasionally put in great performances but who too often choked into a team who won their first 6 Nations grand slam in 13 years and then beat Australia
3 matches to 0 in Australia. His game management is brilliant - he's proved himself not afraid to replace players he selected to play at a very early stage in a game if they aren't doing what is necessary.

What we need is football's own Eddie Jones. I don't mean a feisty, grinning, short-arse Australian (although I wouldn't turn one down if he was the right fit!) but someone who will do the same thing for the football team. I'd love to be able to identify who that person is.

Sadly, I can't. What I do think is that the new manager needs to come from outside the usual channels. Whether he (or she, why not if the candidate is right?) is English is irrelevant. Gareth Southgate is the safe choice but is also the 'establishment' choice. I'm attracted to English possibilities such as Eddie Howe. Unfortunately I think Slav would be brilliant but I would for ever oppose that.

Sorry for the long post.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby Puff Daddy on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:02 pm

Well, they're home now. Their plane landed at Luton Airport this afternoo where there was a fleet of limo's awaiting their arrival on the tarmac ready to whisk them off to their .mansions. They didn't even have to set foot inside the airport, go through passport control, or even baggage reclaim. Could this be because they carried enough baggage as it was ? The overpaid, overhyped darlings, abject failures who have come back home in disgrace
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby JohnSissonsWasMyHero on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:10 pm

Puff Daddy wrote:Well, they're home now. Their plane landed at Luton Airport this afternoo where there was a fleet of limo's awaiting their arrival on the tarmac ready to whisk them off to their .mansions. They didn't even have to set foot inside the airport, go through passport control, or even baggage reclaim. Could this be because they carried enough baggage as it was ? The overpaid, overhyped darlings, abject failures who have come back home in disgrace


My contempt deepens.

Peter Crouch claimed on television last night that the players slumped on the pitch at the end of the ground indicated that they cared. I'm not sure about that - it may very well indicate their extreme sorrow at the loss of the money they won't get because they screwed it up (again).
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby Beavis Danzig on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:18 pm

JohnSissonsWasMyHero wrote:. I'm not sure about that - it may very well indicate their extreme sorrow at the loss of the money they won't get because they screwed it up (again).


don't worry mate. sturridge got his subway dance in against wales. one of them per tournament and he's golden.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby ironsjh on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:37 pm

Arsenal fan claims Wilshere was brilliant and should've started, coupled with comments around the tournament from Arsenal fans, England fans and pundits suggests the problem isn't solely down to the manager. Even fans and pundits have big club bias.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby bobcar on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:37 pm

hammer the hamster wrote:Reading back thought these posts and remembering back over a number of tournaments isn't it clear that the managers are just a small part of the problem. To me it is obvious that England's player lack technique first and foremost. I still hear pundits and managers banging on about moving into space to receive the ball. Yet I look at players of other countries that are happy to receive the ball with 2 or 3 players very close to them and more tellingly their team mates are happy to pass to them even though they are being closely marked.

The close control and speed of thought allows these continental players to 'have time' to lay the ball off in a 1 touch or at most a 2 touch movement.

England's players have to stop the ball, get it under control and then look up to see what is on. Until this is addressed at grass roots level and further up the food chain little will change.


I don't agree with that, those players do play one touch for their clubs and even when the result doesn't matter much they do it for England. What they showed last night was incredibly poor defending triggering a total meltdown in terms of confidence. When things went against them they bottled it - nothing to do with ability - and thanks to Hodgson no plan of action to help with that.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby Bend it like Repka on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:56 pm

JohnSissonsWasMyHero wrote:
My contempt deepens.

Peter Crouch claimed on television last night that the players slumped on the pitch at the end of the ground indicated that they cared. I'm not sure about that - it may very well indicate their extreme sorrow at the loss of the money they won't get because they screwed it up (again).


Here we go with the old overpaid not caring routine. Really? I saw no evidence of that in any game during this campaign. It's so easy to throw that out, according to the FA guy they don't get paid as it goes to charity.

I genuinely believe they cared, and they tried. Just poor leadership and loss of technique are the issues here.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby hammer the hamster on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:59 pm

Bend it like Repka wrote:Here we go with the old overpaid not caring routine. Really? I saw no evidence of that in any game during this campaign. It's so easy to throw that out, according to the FA guy they don't get paid as it goes to charity.

I genuinely believe they cared, and they tried. Just poor leadership and lack of technique are the issues here.


Corrected that for you. You have to have had technique in the first place in order to lose it.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby JohnSissonsWasMyHero on Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:16 pm

Bend it like Repka wrote:... according to the FA guy they don't get paid as it goes to charity.


Maybe not for this particular event but, as players who would have got to quarter- or semi-finals, let alone finals, that would have hugely improved their earnings potential.

For me, they didn't play as though they cared. Compare them to the way the English rugby players played in Australia. That was putting your body on the line.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby Hammer.CA on Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:26 pm

Puff Daddy wrote:Well, they're home now. Their plane landed at Luton Airport this afternoo where there was a fleet of limo's awaiting their arrival on the tarmac ready to whisk them off to their .mansions. They didn't even have to set foot inside the airport, go through passport control, or even baggage reclaim. Could this be because they carried enough baggage as it was ? The overpaid, overhyped darlings, abject failures who have come back home in disgrace


FFS.
If any of them had any balls they would have gone through the airport and people would have thought more of them for it I would like to think, regardless of what the FA instructions might have been. :thdn:
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby hammer the hamster on Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:36 pm

For me a player should earn the right to play for his or her country. What did Wilshere do this season to deserve a call up? We have seen the same scenario time and time again and it has cost us, as players like Rooney and Beckham, try to regain match fitness during competitive tournament finals.

The FA's CEO, Martin Glenn, has commented that they will select the best candidate to work with this group of players. I am beginning to join in with the conspiracy theory that the managers hands are being tied to a small group of FA approved sponsored players.

If the manager is not free to pick his own squad then nothing is going to change. We have had the Golden Generation, now we have the Golden Generation II. It makes interesting reading to see that German commentators call us deluded, with us believing that our team are winners, when to anyone outside The FA and a few other delusional's, nothing could be further from the truth. If this group continues to be picked we will never make it past the quarter finals. Given a couple of decent teams in the upcoming WC qualifying group I think we may have trouble getting to the finals.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby bobcar on Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:55 pm

JohnSissonsWasMyHero wrote:My contempt deepens.

Peter Crouch claimed on television last night that the players slumped on the pitch at the end of the ground indicated that they cared. I'm not sure about that - it may very well indicate their extreme sorrow at the loss of the money they won't get because they screwed it up (again).


That's ridiculous. they obviously cared, if they didn't they would not have played so badly.

The problem was they couldn't handle the pressure and bottled it, if anything they cared too much. If that had been a friendly or qualifying match they would have waltzed through it and won easily - we know they can do that as we've seen it.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby warp on Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:26 pm

it's not a binary state, "caring" or "not giving a ****". of course they cared. as much as the Icelandics though?
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby Viking_Hammer on Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:41 pm

bobcar wrote:
That's ridiculous. they obviously cared, if they didn't they would not have played so badly.

The problem was they couldn't handle the pressure and bottled it, if anything they cared too much. If that had been a friendly or qualifying match they would have waltzed through it and won easily - we know they can do that as we've seen it.


And there it is....... :thdn:
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby orbital on Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:47 pm

From what I saw (was there, and as they came off I was right above the tunnel), there was no emotion, they might of gave the impression as the final whistle went that they were dejected, but as I watched them come down the tunnel my impression was that they really could not give a f***.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby Rocketron on Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:47 pm

hammer the hamster wrote:For me a player should earn the right to play for his or her country. What did Wilshere do this season to deserve a call up? We have seen the same scenario time and time again and it has cost us, as players like Rooney and Beckham, try to regain match fitness during competitive tournament finals.

The FA's CEO, Martin Glenn, has commented that they will select the best candidate to work with this group of players. I am beginning to join in with the conspiracy theory that the managers hands are being tied to a small group of FA approved sponsored players.

If the manager is not free to pick his own squad then nothing is going to change. We have had the Golden Generation, now we have the Golden Generation II. It makes interesting reading to see that German commentators call us deluded, with us believing that our team are winners, when to anyone outside The FA and a few other delusional's, nothing could be further from the truth. If this group continues to be picked we will never make it past the quarter finals. Given a couple of decent teams in the upcoming WC qualifying group I think we may have trouble getting to the finals.

No self-respecting Manager will agree to that condition.
I await the applicants.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby mjustincredible on Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:17 pm

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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby bobcar on Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:19 pm

Viking_Hammer wrote:
And there it is....... :thdn:


Well clearly. The pressure got to them which it wouldn't if they didn't care, there is no other reasonable explanation as to why they couldn't do the basic things like pass, trap the ball and run into space that they do week in week out for their clubs. The Icelandics by comparison also cared but played to their strengths despite this and deservedly won, they didn't let the (admittedly less) pressure get to them.
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Re: England v Iceland....

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:27 pm

bobcar wrote:The pressure got to them which it wouldn't if they didn't care, there is no other reasonable explanation as to why they couldn't do the basic things like pass, trap the ball and run into space that they do week in week out for their clubs.

Do they though? Or at least do they do it to the degree that the Spanish, the italians, the French, etc do it. Pressure may have been part of it. But so was a lack of basic technique. As was them not caring, or at least not caring nearly as much as their opposition did.

Finally, we have little quality - the least I've ever seen. I said that the other day and a lad I really respect on here pointed to the likes of Carlton Palmer. But as crap as he was there was still quality around him. Not one of that team last night would have got into our '96 or '90 team. Not a single one. That's an awful indictment as to how bereft of players we are. He had to go but that's not down to Hodgson and whoever comes next will have the same problem.

Anyway I've never felt so meh about England going out. My expectations of them were zero and they lived up to them. Alll tournament people were saying we'd be better against better sides. I never bought that for one single second. We are a 6/10 international team at best.
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