OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

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Pulls up Trees
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by Pulls up Trees »

On this issue of fairness, domestically at least, every club/business in the country had the chance to submit a bid for the stadium. When the original bid process was abandoned, again, every club/business in the country had the chance to bid for tenancy of the stadium. The fact that we were chosen as the best bid in both of those processes should in fact prove that a fair decision was made within the confines of the process.

Now the point made about fairness and how it impacts European clubs is another matter, it's hard to argue that we wouldn't have an advantage over Ajax as per the example. (Maybe that's why there is a question over whether we participate in the Europa League next season?).

If a country can give a perceived advantage to one it's own, should it be allowed? How does that equate to Britain giving it's populace more money in unemployment benefit compared to someone like Romania or Bulgaria? Isn't that giving Britons an advantage too? But this is a massively political argument.
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WestHamIFC
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by WestHamIFC »

sicknote wrote:If you were not a west ham supporter and lpokong at it as a uk taxpayer propping up a premoer league football club

Why? :?

Can you even begin to imagine how much that Stadium would cost the Tax Payer if West Ham didn't move in??

West Ham have saved the Tax Payer £millions.
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Mega Ron
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by Mega Ron »

I've seen it suggested on the skyscapercity site that we are the beneficiary's of the change to the stadium, ie if we weren't moving there it would be a 25,000 capacity venue.

As far as I'm aware the additions to the stadium that benefit West Ham are the retractable seats and the corporate elements.

The scaled down version of the stadium was already scrapped wasn't it?
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by WestHamIFC »

Mega Ron wrote:I've seen it suggested on the skyscapercity site that we are the beneficiary's of the change to the stadium, ie if we weren't moving there it would be a 25,000 capacity venue.
Yes and it would be the biggest White Elephant ever.

Leyton Orient and the approached Rugby Clubs all turned it down without conversion due to the Running Track, lack of Roof, etc, etc.

25k stadium for some gigs and a couple of Athletics meets in the summer. Unfathomable how many Tax Payer millions would have been wasted..

The country should be thanking West Ham for saving this mess.
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Believer
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by Believer »

Galatasaray stadium was a straight swap with the Govt for their old ground
AC Milan and Inter ground paid for by Govt
Porto ground paid for by Govt
Marseille City Council paid for Marseille ground

There are a number of clubs throughout Europe who've had support from local Govt. Maybe Mr Architect worked on those ones....
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by Big George »

Believer wrote:Galatasaray stadium was a straight swap with the Govt for their old ground
AC Milan and Inter ground paid for by Govt
Porto ground paid for by Govt
Marseille City Council paid for Marseille ground

There are a number of clubs throughout Europe who've had support from local Govt. Maybe Mr Architect worked on those ones....
Maybe they were smart enough to be get advance EU clearance, like Spurs did.
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by kenthammer1984 »

Believer wrote:My thoughts as well. If you hire a car, you would be right to assume that the hire company have registered it, got the insurance in place and road tax etc. you don't drive it down the road, get pulled by plod and have to pay any fines.
i think the buck stops with the driver to make sure any vehicle he/she is driving is road legal and safe/secure etc.

i have seen people on test drives being given fines/points before on "police, camera, action" type programs because of dodgy stickers on the windscreen or tyres that were illegal.
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by Big George »

Pulls up Trees wrote:On this issue of fairness, domestically at least, every club/business in the country had the chance to submit a bid for the stadium. .
Legal definition of fairness very different.
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sicknote
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by sicknote »

It was 5 million quid a year upkeep once the upper toer was dismantled and kept as just a 25000 athletic stadium, with lottery funding and events without football I think it would have healthily survived and been a benefit for london and home counties schools as it should have been a legacy

The taxpayer would never have had to worry as ot was budgeted for pre planning
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Estuary
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by Estuary »

At its heart the article/complaint is that we are not paying a competitive price for the lease because of subsidy, it gives Ajax as a comparison at euro7m, that's approx. £5m, so as a last resort we up the annual payment from the £2.65m. Its not exactly a back breaking sum in the football scheme of things.
Are clubs like Lazio or Milan subject to the same consideration? They pay in state owned stadiums.
Personally I see the article as a dig at Boris, which in political terms is like shooting an elephant with pea shooter.
Lastly, The Charlton Supporters Trust, who the f..k are they to poke their beak into our business.
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by the pink palermo »

Estuary wrote:Lastly, The Charlton Supporters Trust, who the f..k are they to poke their beak into our business.
Payback for mini Judas .
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by sicknote »

Id say more to do with the absolutely disgraceful way their council amd the glc did fick all for them in their nomadic past and the hard graft they themselves fundraosing and the like managed to get the club back to the valley, their dig will be at lldc and the favouritism shown to only one club in the whole of greater lpndon at possibly other clubs expence

That article may well see ajax as the first interested european club to have a nibble considering their costs and others in municiple grounds will as well as monaco won't as they get a great deal ;)
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Estuary
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by Estuary »

Isn't that the point, the Euro legal plod get stuck into us, win, we have to double our annual contribution, which isn't nice but it isn't beyond us. Then what? We dig out every club in Europe with a better deal? For what purpose?
I cant see this going to court, there are to many vested interests with reason for it not to.
And as for "poor me" Charlton, who the f..k gave them house room when they had had enough of Selhurst Park? Two bob club with nose ointment muggy pricks with short f.king memories as a "trust". Surely to god they have better things to do with their time than digging us out? What possible benefit can this bring them? Other than maybe a good shoeing if they are unlucky enough to cross the wrong/right paths.
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by sicknote »

Its not the same west ham now, they aren't dealing with terrence, but gold sullivan and the woman, im sire like most in football they have had dealings with them 3 that they feel wasn't good for charlton, so no loyalty there to them 3

Most charlton fans of a certain age I know are and were very grateful for us allowing them the use of the boleyn, as ronald noades wasn't being the best of landlords to them at selhurst at the time


The biggest f*** up in all of that though was not accepting charltons offer of rob lee instead of cash, at the time ot would have been a great deal , they sold him to Newcastle instead and it helped get them back home
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by paulhs1 »

It's ok folks we've not signed the contract yet.....oh wait! :shock:
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by paulhs1 »

What are we worried about peeps, it's not as though our owners quadrupled the value of the club overnight when they got given the stadium.....oh hold on....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... debts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bought for £100m, how much is it worth now....and some think it's not state aid!
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by Dwight1970 »

Isn't the reality that parties out of jealousy or any another reason are going to keep digging for flaws in our agreement so every time they think they have found something that is open to interpretation we are going to get stories like this.

These parties will not stop digging but I am pretty confident that if we are so in the wrong as some seem intent in saying these parties would have a bigger story than this by now, the fact is that investigating a complaint which the authorities are obliged to entertain is still a long way from being guilty of something.

We are the main tenant who is renting the stadium for a specific number of occasions during a year whereas some of the deals we are being compared with clubs who are the sole tenant controlling the operation of the venue 7 days a week. To me that is a significant factor, if say the rental cost of the stadium is £100,000 a day then surely it easily argued that our rent is reasonable as our occupancy is only relevant when we play whereas others is also at times when they don't so their costs showed be looked as differently and really not comparable to us.

Questions could be raised about the conversion costs but as we are contributing to them when it could be equally argued as we will only utilise these facilities for a fraction of their available time that and can be used at all other times that our actions are more than reasonable to the taxpayer.

As I said I don't expect these stories to go away while there are those disaffected parties out there but people need to have a bit more confidence those in charge have foreseen this and have put in place an agreement that deals with these issues.
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by Dwight1970 »

Doc H Ball wrote:
You don't understand the law though.

UK Athletics are not a private business so completely irrelevant.

There is a consortium of London Assembly MPs, 2 PL Clubs, supporters' groups and legal experts in the field who have a complaint ready to file when the figures are released. Call it a rehash if you want but it's not going away.

Simply put, a business run by 2 multi millionaires stands to see a rise in value of 400% on their own figures for an outlay of £15m. The equation is:

Increase in corporate income + increase in ticket revenue + increase in exposure (shirt sponsor/commercial) = X

Capital outlay + rent + catering + naming rights attributed to Club =X

The two must balance and any shortfall is State Aid. The other parties are irrelevant, it is the calculated profit to a private business from public revenue that counts.

I don't intend to repeat what I've said on the OS forum, but if you think other Clubs are going to shell out half a billion of their own money on stadia and keep schtum when we got 'the deal of the century' (our own VC's words not mine) then think again.
Though I understand your concern I really don't see the problem to be anything as big as you are saying, surely the comparison has to be made to what we generate through gates now and with rental costs plus our contribution to the conversion costs to be paid out for the new stadium I doubt it would need anything more than a simple accountant to demonstrate we are not making significantly more matchday money through the gate in those early seasons than what we did at The Boleyn.

Other clubs might be unhappy but ultimately the vast majority of our income will come from TV broadcasters and being a pretty established Premier League club before moving stadiums means it would be difficult to argue the new stadium as a factor in earning this.

Likewise sponsorship unless it was on the scale of a Chelsea or Manchester United I doubt it will be a factor if at all or for a long time, that fact is any allegations made will hypothetical based on future income so really can't see them being proved and if these questions are being raised in 10 or so years time it will be because we have been successful so will be perceived to be a minor issue then.
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by Doc H Ball »

If it's all so simple, then release the figures and let an accountant do the sums.

You forgot corporate sales, which is the big one.

Another thread on here estimates the difference in revenue between the OS and the BG is circa £90m v £25m before TV money. I don't agree with those figures but hospitality and corporate sales at the OS will dwarf what we get presently.

The owners of our Club are on record saying that the move allows us to take the next step up that they otherwise couldn't make. Sounds like an admission to me.
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Re: OS to cost West Ham millions in EU penalties

Post by Dwight1970 »

Doc H Ball wrote:If it's all so simple, then release the figures and let an accountant do the sums.

You forgot corporate sales, which is the big one.

Another thread on here estimates the difference in revenue between the OS and the BG is circa £90m v £25m before TV money. I don't agree with those figures but hospitality and corporate sales at the OS will dwarf what we get presently.

The owners of our Club are on record saying that the move allows us to take the next step up that they otherwise couldn't make. Sounds like an admission to me.
Yes but surely expenditure like rent and other investment we have made in the stadium will be set against this matchday income and in the early seasons and will be significant compared to what we pay at The Boleyn Ground where many costs can be spread against other operations during the week at a venue we own?

I don't see what releasing the figures other than allow more speculation and more mischief making as any calculation of future income will be speculation which I doubt will be enough for the authorities to take action on but will allow more stories like this.
Last edited by Dwight1970 on Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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