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dave_l
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by dave_l »

As should his colleague Rob Evans in that case http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugb ... s-11005553

I think Marler should cop a ban for what he said. It was stupid and out of line, and the fact he made an immediate apology suggests he knows that. However, if anyone thinks that the worst thing that is said in the front rows then they're sadly mistaken. Banned from the game completely? Do me a favour.

Talking of bans, I would imagine that Francis will cop a lengthy one for putting his hands in Dan Cole's face. Ashton got 10 weeks, I would assume similar.

That said, I'm delighted England have won the tournament. Just need to finish the job in Paris this weekend which we're fully capable of doing. Still a long way to go before this side is challenging the SH teams but the building blocks are looking much stronger than they were a few months ago.
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by ironstu »

Top performance from England. Completely blew Wales off the pitch for 70 minutes and they couldn't live with our intensity and urgency. For a team that has such a strong back-row, England dominated them at the breakdown, having a second-row like Itoje who can compete for the ball on the floor like he does is a massive bonus.

The whole pack were outstanding, much was being made of Vunipola v Faletau in the build up and i think Faletau is a brilliant player, but Vunipola was miles ahead and is player of the tournament for me so far.

Big test coming up against the French on Saturday. Whether they're the best or worst French team ever, you can guarantee they will turn up in Paris to stop England winning the Grand Slam. Stick to everything that we've done so far and they won't live with us.

England deserve the Grand Slam.
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by Eggchaser »

dave_l wrote:As should his colleague Rob Evans in that case http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugb ... s-11005553

I think Marler should cop a ban for what he said. It was stupid and out of line, and the fact he made an immediate apology suggests he knows that. However, if anyone thinks that the worst thing that is said in the front rows then they're sadly mistaken. Banned from the game completely? Do me a favour.
Spot on Dave, I think (hope) ToMoS was joking.
dave_l wrote: Talking of bans, I would imagine that Francis will cop a lengthy one for putting his hands in Dan Cole's face. Ashton got 10 weeks, I would assume similar.
I cannot believe he didn't receive a red on Saturday, it looked quite clear on the video footage as his hand was moving in an unnatural direction for a player hitting a ruck.None of the 40 odd people in the bar I was watching in could understand what 'other angle' the TMO wanted. To be fair to Gatland he has also been quoted as saying "It doesn't look good".

dave_l wrote: That said, I'm delighted England have won the tournament. Just need to finish the job in Paris this weekend which we're fully capable of doing. Still a long way to go before this side is challenging the SH teams but the building blocks are looking much stronger than they were a few months ago.
The only thing for me is that it's a bit of an anti climax winning when the team isn't playing.
It would have created a great atmosphere next week if there was a championship and a grand slam at stake :thup:

Jones hasn't really changed much so far, but what he has done is given them the confidence to go out and play. He also handles the press bettert than Lancaster did and talks the players up and deflects criticism well. I was never a fan of his Australian side, I always thought they were just as dour as any of the NH sides and probably moreso than Woodward's England, but I have been very impressed with what he has achieved in such a short space of time. I saw an interview last night where he talked about the team moving on by taking responsibilty themselves and developing their own style.

The first step for me will be to develop the clinical edge that will see them convert the 2 or 3 other chances they created in the 1st half on Saturday. They could and probably should have been out of sight by half time.
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by Eggchaser »

ironstu wrote:Top performance from England. Completely blew Wales off the pitch for 70 minutes and they couldn't live with our intensity and urgency. For a team that has such a strong back-row, England dominated them at the breakdown, having a second-row like Itoje who can compete for the ball on the floor like he does is a massive bonus.
I was saying to a mate on Saturday, when you think how people were raving about Launchbury and Lawes a couple of years ago. They have now been replaced by Itoje and Kruis both of whom are are on top form. That means we have two very good replacements at lock and it is beginning to look that way across the entire pack. I would just like another 7.....and I also think Dan Cole's days are numbered, he is really starting to struggle in the scrum.
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by ironstu »

Eggchaser wrote:

I was saying to a mate on Saturday, when you think how people were raving about Launchbury and Lawes a couple of years ago. They have now been replaced by Itoje and Kruis both of whom are are on top form. That means we have two very good replacements at lock and it is beginning to look that way across the entire pack. I would just like another 7.....and I also think Dan Cole's days are numbered, he is really starting to struggle in the scrum.
That's right mate, Launchbury has the potential to become a world class lock but Kruis and Itoje have taken control of the 4 and 5 shirts for the time being. However, I could see there being an argument for Launchbury and Itoje to take over the reigns when we go to Australia. The physical nature of the 6 Nations suits Kruis a lot better, Launchbury and Itoje potentially better suited to what will no doubt be a much faster game when we go Down Under.

As far as I'm concerned, only South Africa can rival us in terms of strength in depth when it comes to young, quality second rows (Eben Etzebeth, Pieter-Steph du Toit and Lood de Jager are three of the best in the world IMO).

Agree with your opinion on Dan Cole, I think he had really stepped up in this 6 Nations but had a really tough time against Wales. It is not going to be long before Kieran Brookes has the number 3 shirt to start.

Marler is going to miss the France game undoubtedly for the punch when Cole was diving over for his disallowed try (I couldn't believe it wasn't picked up by the TMO at the time, I cringed everytime they showed another replay waiting for the TMO to say something about it but he completely ignored it!). What with the "gypsy boy" comment, there's no way he is going to play in that game so a good chance for Mako Vunipola to prove his worth!
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by dave_l »

Agree with your points on both Jones and Dan Cole, Eggchaser.

I think Jones has set up a regime that is less regimented but still very well organised if you get my drift. He seems like the sort of guy that has learnt from his various experiences and taken them on to the next job. As you say, his handling of the press is good. Part of that may be because they have a natural respect for him that Lancaster probably never had. Jones - experienced, been there done that vs. Lancaster who coached the youths and coached a relegated Leeds team.

On Dan Cole, it's a case for one of many promising candidates to step up and make the shirt their own. Brookes is the obvious next cab off the rank but there's Paul Hill and probably behind him the still raw but seriously destructive Kyle Sinckler at Quins. Being coached by Adam Jones probably won't do him any harm.

Itoje has looked awesome. I'd like to see some more of Clifford over the next 12 months. All in all, things do look positive though. Slade and May to come back from long term injury as well.
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots »

When I saw the Francis 'gouge', my immediate gut reaction was "Penalty, but careless rather than malicious".

I suppose it all comes down to how much of an example HQ want to make of it, how much they want to reinforce the message "Keep your hands away from the face".
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by ironstu »

dave_l wrote: On Dan Cole, it's a case for one of many promising candidates to step up and make the shirt their own. Brookes is the obvious next cab off the rank but there's Paul Hill and probably behind him the still raw but seriously destructive Kyle Sinckler at Quins. Being coached by Adam Jones probably won't do him any harm.
I think it is fair to say that we are pretty well placed when it comes to Tighthead props which is testament to our strength in depth. There's Henry Thomas at Bath as well who I would argue is above Kyle Sinckler in the England pecking order at the moment!
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by ironstu »

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote:When I saw the Francis 'gouge', my immediate gut reaction was "Penalty, but careless rather than malicious".

I suppose it all comes down to how much of an example HQ want to make of it, how much they want to reinforce the message "Keep your hands away from the face".
I think they will continue to reinforce the message, it is something that needs to be wiped out of the game, as innocuous as it looked.

The same will will apply to Joe Marler, I fear the powers that be will come down hard on him for gypsy-gate and make him an example for anyone wanting to get personal in their insults.
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by The Old Man of Storr »

Calling Lee a ' Gypsy Boy ' is akin to using the ' N ' Word for a black player , it's a racial insult , if you're ok with having such a player representing your country , well that's your prerogative .
A very low blow indeed , I can't think of another sport where an opponent would stoop so low , disgraceful behaviour , Marler should never represent his Country again .
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by 3times »

The Old Man of Storr wrote:Calling Lee a ' Gypsy Boy ' is akin to using the ' N ' Word for a black player , it's a racial insult , if you're ok with having such a player representing your country , well that's your prerogative .
A very low blow indeed , I can't think of another sport where an opponent would stoop so low , disgraceful behaviour , Marler should never represent his Country again .
Sorry can't agree with any of this. Gypsy Boy is not at all like using the 'N' word. I can't believe how politically correct people have become. When has a little bit of name calling hurt anyone. Or are these 19st lumps a bit over sensitive now days.

As for not being able to find another sport when an opponent would stoop so low - It goes on in most sports. Though out my whole football (and a little bit of rugby & cricket) careers I was constantly on the verbal trying to wind other players up.
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by White Goodman »

The Old Man of Storr wrote:Calling Lee a ' Gypsy Boy ' is akin to using the ' N ' Word for a black player , it's a racial insult , if you're ok with having such a player representing your country , well that's your prerogative .
A very low blow indeed , I can't think of another sport where an opponent would stoop so low , disgraceful behaviour , Marler should never represent his Country again .
It's not pleasant but it really isn't on the same level
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by EvilC »

The Old Man of Storr wrote:Calling Lee a ' Gypsy Boy ' is akin to using the ' N ' Word for a black player , it's a racial insult , if you're ok with having such a player representing your country , well that's your prerogative .
A very low blow indeed , I can't think of another sport where an opponent would stoop so low , disgraceful behaviour , Marler should never represent his Country again .
I agree with the others - it is nowhere near as bad as the use of the "N" word.

As for it not happening in other sports - John Terry has been accused of use of the "N" word twice!
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by dave_l »

The Old Man of Storr wrote:Calling Lee a ' Gypsy Boy ' is akin to using the ' N ' Word for a black player , it's a racial insult , if you're ok with having such a player representing your country , well that's your prerogative .
A very low blow indeed , I can't think of another sport where an opponent would stoop so low , disgraceful behaviour , Marler should never represent his Country again .
Tomos- His team mate at Scarlets referred to him as "this gypsy" in the article I posted. Sorry, it just isn't the same as the N word.
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots »

The Old Man of Storr wrote:Calling Lee a ' Gypsy Boy ' is akin to using the ' N ' Word for a black player

......................................
So why didn't you refer to it as the 'G' word if it's as bad?
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by Eggchaser »

ironstu wrote: However, I could see there being an argument for Launchbury and Itoje to take over the reigns when we go to Australia. The physical nature of the 6 Nations suits Kruis a lot better, Launchbury and Itoje potentially better suited to what will no doubt be a much faster game when we go Down Under.
That's a good point and it'll be interesting to see what Jones does.

ironstu wrote: As far as I'm concerned, only South Africa can rival us in terms of strength in depth when it comes to young, quality second rows (Eben Etzebeth, Pieter-Steph du Toit and Lood de Jager are three of the best in the world IMO).
Yes, they are talented players for sure although I must admit I didn't see much of them last year other than the world cup.
ironstu wrote: Marler is going to miss the France game undoubtedly for the punch when Cole was diving over for his disallowed try (I couldn't believe it wasn't picked up by the TMO at the time, I cringed everytime they showed another replay waiting for the TMO to say something about it but he completely ignored it!). What with the "gypsy boy" comment, there's no way he is going to play in that game so a good chance for Mako Vunipola to prove his worth!
Ah! Yes I'd forgotten that punch, he didn't have great day did he.
I don't think there's much difference between the two in terms of ability to be honest.
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by Eggchaser »

The Old Man of Storr wrote:Calling Lee a ' Gypsy Boy ' is akin to using the ' N ' Word for a black player , it's a racial insult , if you're ok with having such a player representing your country , well that's your prerogative .
A very low blow indeed , I can't think of another sport where an opponent would stoop so low , disgraceful behaviour , Marler should never represent his Country again .
You'll be calling for Rob Evans to be banned from the Welsh squad too then?
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by Eggchaser »

Dave ,

I think you're probably right about Jones & Lancaster

I've been really impressed with Itoje and Clifford who both stood out for U20s a couple of years ago.

I'd forgotten quite how many decent props there were coming through , let's hope continue to develop. :thup:
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by The Old Man of Storr »

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote:
So why didn't you refer to it as the 'G' word if it's as bad?
OK , I will concede that it was shock and anger that was the cause of the comparison - Let's say for instance then that an English player was of Jewish descent , would you be happy for him to be referred to as ' Jew Boy ' - it's the addition of the word ' Boy ' that belittles and insults the player and his race and I am sure you are intelligent enough to realise that . If a Welsh player had referred to Maro Itoje as ' Black Boy ' the Rugby World would be up in arms and quite rightly so , it seems to me that there are varying degrees of ' racial abuse ' and Gypsies are far down the Totem Pole according to some .
How anyone can even begin to defend Marler is beyond me and as for Rob Jones he was also a victim of Marler's bullying tactics when he received a forearm to the face repeatedly .
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Re: 2016 6 Nations - Rugby Union

Post by 3times »

TOMOS,
I see what you are saying to an extent but lets take a good look at things.
Gypsies are not a race or religion, they are a way of life that they choose to follow. As far as I am concerned they have no standing at all. When they want to follow the rules of the land and do things like 'pay taxes' I might reconsider. I have known a fair few over the years and there are good and bad but one thing that stands out is the majority of the good ones have gradually moved from the lifestyle and into the mainstream. I think Marler will be punished but only because of political correctness, not because it was particularly offensive.

As for Marler bullying Jones, I assume that you have never played. It wasn't a punch or forearm smash as everyone seems to think, it was a little nudge. Players will be trying that on all game and sometimes they get caught and, if so, can be punished.

The thing to come out of all this is that I haven't seen Lee or Jones complaining. Probably because they know that if they can't take a little bit of verbal or rough stuff they are in the wrong game.
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