Greatest British sportsperson of all time

[Bend it like Repka]

Murray's return of serve is unbelievably good. I think he would have beaten Sampras pretty easily.

Yup. My basis is Henmans Wimbledon record in the era of Sampras. It's pretty good, semis, losing a final.

Murray would absolutely destroy Henman 99 matches in 100, so I think he would have the beating of Agassi, Sampras etc.

[Collison Theory]

I think it'd say a lot about British sport if Andy Murray is our greatest ever athlete - especially when you compare Murrray's achievements to that of Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Sampras, Agassi etc.

That's not to say Murray isn't great, but I don't think he can be the greatest ever British sportsperson if he's never even dominated his own sport.

I agree, saying Murray is our greatest is saying Switzerland, Serbia and Spain have all had greater sportsmen.

[rare as rockinghorse shat]

Murray would absolutely destroy Henman 99 matches in 100, so I think he would have the beating of Agassi, Sampras etc.

Would we allow Tennis Ability Inflation in that though?

In the same way that if Johnny Evans was playing in the 60s, he'd be twice the defender that Bobby Moore was?

[sendô]

Re Hamilton in F1, well Michael Schumacher is often regarded as the greatest F1 driver, whereas most of his title wins came when Ferrari were dominant and no-one could touch them. It kind of comes with the territory with F1.

In fairness to Hamilton, he has consistently outperformed every driver he's been teamed with, including Alonso and Rosberg who are no Rubens Barrichellos.

[Claretdave]

Yup. My basis is Henmans Wimbledon record in the era of Sampras. It's pretty good, semis, losing a final.

Murray would absolutely destroy Henman 99 matches in 100, so I think he would have the beating of Agassi, Sampras etc.

That is a ridiculous argument. You can't possibly say how good or otherwise the best of ten years ago would be against today's best.

[Cockneyboy311]

Yup. My basis is Henmans Wimbledon record in the era of Sampras. It's pretty good, semis, losing a final.

Murray would absolutely destroy Henman 99 matches in 100, so I think he would have the beating of Agassi, Sampras etc.

Henman never made a Wimbledon final. He should have done but got done by the weather whilst playing Goran Ivanisavic. Got rained off whilst in front. Next day they come back and Goran beats him. He then went on to win the final by the way.

[rare as rockinghorse shat]

Always thought those tennis players were witches.

Look at Goran; even he's a witch.

I'm leaving.

[Cockneyboy311]

Always thought those tennis players were witches.

Look at Goran; even he's a witch.

I'm leaving.

FFS. Took me a few seconds

[Bend it like Repka]

That is a ridiculous argument. You can't possibly say how good or otherwise the best of ten years ago would be against today's best.

I can and I have! I don't think the game has changed that much from the Pistol Pete era to now. Strength and fitness is not that different, however I remember big servers being more successful then than now. The technical ability of Murray, Novak and Fed in the return is the improvement, because they are just better players in my book.

I'd agree that you can't compare Bjorg and Mac to now because of wooden racquets, however I'd wager both would have been top top players.

[Bend it like Repka]

Would we allow Tennis Ability Inflation in that though?

In the same way that if Johnny Evans was playing in the 60s, he'd be twice the defender that Bobby Moore was?

There has been no great leap in tennis over the last 15 years to give Murray that much superiority over Henman. He is just more talented.

I watched plenty of tennis then and now and Novak is just better than Sampras technically and mentally. He gets the ball back from ridiculous positions that Sampras never did.

Your inflation argument doesn't play out with Tiger Woods.

[rare as rockinghorse shat]

I never mentioned Woods, but now you mention it, the argument plays out with him better than most.

Woods hashad far better clubs, balls, access to better nutrition and strength conditioning, swing technology, a huge database of analysts, a supreme caddy.

There's also the argument that had Sampras regularly played against the standard of player we have now, then his game would have undoubtedly improved.
To become as good as Djokovic/Murray? Who knows.

[Morocco Mole]

I'm no tennis expert but Sampras basically represented the apex of the serve and volley era didn't he? In other words, since then, the likes of Nadal, Fed, Djok and Murray have become so proficient technically, physically and athletically that they changed the game back to a more all round baseline and net court game? So yeah I I'd say Tennis has moved on quite a bit, even in the last 10/15 years.

[-DL-]

Re Hamilton in F1, well Michael Schumacher is often regarded as the greatest F1 driver, whereas most of his title wins came when Ferrari were dominant and no-one could touch them. It kind of comes with the territory with F1.

This leaves a sour taste in my mouth when people mention Schumacher as one of the greatest drivers at all time. He was just fortunate to be in the sport when he was, when he had virtually nil competition, and the sport was more about the designers (Newey/Brawn). than the driver. He was never the best driver for me - cheating Hill out of Championship Victory in 94, gaining the title in 2002 because his team told Barrichello to slow down from the lead and let him past, winning in 2003 when the tyre rules were changed mid-season to favour Ferrari meaning the then championship leaders Montoya and Kimi Räikkönen had to race with tyres hardly tested.

Don't get me wrong, he was a very good driver indeed, but, for the reasons above, plus many others (dangerous driving, nefarious activity by his teams to name but two) casts a huge shadow over his achievements for me.

The shenanigans that went of in F1 during the Scumacher era actually put me off F1 for years - and I've never quite had the love for it that I once had back again.

[Gormalysis]

I think Dorian Yates deserves a mention, 6 consecutive Sandows (Mr Olympia)

[Denbighammer]

This leaves a sour taste in my mouth when people mention Schumacher as one of the greatest drivers at all time.

Agreed.

He was just fortunate to be in the sport when he was, when he had virtually nil competition,

Schumacher raced against Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan-Pablo Montoya, Jenson Button and Fernando Alonso.

and the sport was more about the designers (Newey/Brawn). than the driver.

Rory Byrne designed all 7 of Schumachers title winning cars. Schumacher always had to compete against Newey designed cars.

cheating Hill out of Championship Victory in 94,

1994 marked the beginning of meddling from on-high, the farcical ban handed to Schumacher for 'illegal level of skid plate wear' in Belgium (2 race ban) was designed to make the title contest close and achieved just that. The punishment (conveniently) far outweighed the crime.

gaining the title in 2002 because his team told Barrichello to slow down from the lead and let him past,

MS won 11 races to 4. Yes he did have a win handed to him in ridiculous circumstances by a terrible team decision but ultimately, he just blew everyone away that year.

winning in 2003 when the tyre rules were changed mid-season to favour Ferrari meaning the then championship leaders Montoya and Kimi Räikkönen had to race with tyres hardly tested.

I'd agree with that.

Don't get me wrong, he was a very good driver indeed, but, for the reasons above, plus many others (dangerous driving, nefarious activity by his teams to name but two) casts a huge shadow over his achievements for me.

The shenanigans that went of in F1 during the Scumacher era actually put me off F1 for years - and I've never quite had the love for it that I once had back again.

I'd agree with that too, although I would say that the stuff Schumacher got up to was an extension of what we saw from Senna.

Don't get me wrong I'm not his biggest fan and he'd be well down my list but he was the best driver for many years, he set new standards in his preparations and was a relentlessly focussed competitor in a way that the sport had never previously seen.

[Bend it like Repka]

I never mentioned Woods, but now you mention it, the argument plays out with him better than most.

Woods hashad far better clubs, balls, access to better nutrition and strength conditioning, swing technology, a huge database of analysts, a supreme caddy.
.

The argument works both ways. you are right that Woods made a leap that advanced golf, in the same that the end of wooden racquets changed tennis, but leaps happen in all sports at certain points.

However the point is that the dominant Woods of 15 years ago would comfortably be up there competing for majors now, there has been no further massive leap that would stop him competing with Speith et all.

[Bend it like Repka]

On Schmacher I absolutely agree with DL. The tragic accident he has suffered is terrible of course, but I absolutely hated him as a sport star and his win at any price methodology was terrible for the sport.

[RyanWHUFC]

Schumacher was the greatest and will continue to be the greatest.

As Denbig says, he was punished in 94, by a decision to make the title close, it was a heavy punishment and he should've probably just been excluded from that race, would of won that title at a canter.

2002, a stupid team call but he would've won the title at the next race anyway, he walloped everyone that year.

2003, by mid season do you mean the final 3 races?

The greatest, by far, although I have finally realised what a talent and racer Hamilton is, different to Schumacher but if he continues in this vein then he's gonna push Schumacher close.

Anyway, best not to hijack a thread debating greatest BRITISH sportsperson with comments about Michael Schumacher!

[rare as rockinghorse shat]

BILR, I see you was referring to Woods and now, rather than Woods and previous eras.

[OFT]

Always thought those tennis players were witches.
Look at Goran; even he's a witch.
I'm leaving.

FFS. Took me a few seconds

Took me considerably longer but it was worth the puzzlement.


Very good indeed rars.