British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

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westhamgardner
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Re: British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

Post by westhamgardner »

Eggchaser wrote:
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=11&language=EN

Law 11.6 Accidental Offside
When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.


Having reviewed the video Poite rightly (imo) decided that the Lions player (Owens?) was moving back to an onside position and had little or no chance to avoid touching the ball. So NO it wasn't a penalty, a scrum was the correct decision.

Keiran Read's assertion that "there is no such thing in the rules as accidental offside", is incorrect, he may be a great player but he needs to read the law book

The decision last week was made by Garces and this week by Poite, they're different people, they will each interpret incidents in their own way. It's called human nature.
Personally, I think they'd showed courage by not being influenced by crowd noise or indeed the TMO who clearly WAS afraid of giving Williams a red card.

You want to complain about consistency? most referees will give a scrum penalty against the prop who ends up flat on his face having collapsed the scrum because his feet were too far back. Both Garces, last week, and Poite yesterday, seemed to ignore this when the All Blacks did it.
Poite yesterday reset a scrum umpteen times in an attempt to let Crockett off the hook, this having just awarded a penalty the other way in the exact same circumstances, right in front of the Lions posts.

Was he worse in the Hurricanes match? Personally, I think Kaino's yellow yesterday was harsh, as unlike Williams last week, it didn't look reckless or intentional, it was simply unfortunate.
Maybe that evens out with the yellow given against Henderson in the Hurricanes match which was equally harsh.

Personally, I think they both got most of the big decisions right in the tests.

As for style of play, obviously the Lions should just have turned up and let everyone run over them, how dare they compete!
I'm not Gatland's biggest fan,but the Lions evolved their style of play throughout the tour. Defence is as big a part of the game as attack. Both defences in the tests were massive, furthermore as I said earlier in the thread the try in the 1st test was one of the best I've ever seen.

I make Loftyhammer right. :wink:
Agreed on the reffing of the scrum. When Kaino was off Poite allowed the All Blacks to collapse the scrum at least 3 times chewing up the clock multiple minutes and refused to penalize them for the constant collapse. Sinkler collapsed once and he blew. But everyone will remember the accidental offside
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Re: British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

Post by pablo jaye »

SRXT wrote:Thought that might be the case :D still, I'm interested in how it was seen over there. I thought the media manipulated the public a lot on both sides.
Like anything that the news channels run nowadays, they do hype things up unnecessarily and try to create new angles (or if you were a cynic ... agendas). Nothing different for the Lions - first it was the choice of Gatland as head coach, then it was his selection, then the results when we lost games .... funnily enough, things quietened down over the last couple of weeks, and it was a case of 'how dare the kiwi media make WG out to be a clown'.

The best (meaning, most over-hyped) coverage was Sky Sports .... billing things as life and death etc ....

To be honest, if you want the real story in today's world, you have to ignore most of the typed hype and make your own judgement.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

Post by SRXT »

Eggchaser wrote:http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=11&language=EN

Law 11.6 Accidental Offside
When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.


Having reviewed the video Poite rightly (imo) decided that the Lions player (Owens?) was moving back to an onside position and had little or no chance to avoid touching the ball. So NO it wasn't a penalty, a scrum was the correct decision.

Keiran Read's assertion that "there is no such thing in the rules as accidental offside", is incorrect, he may be a great player but he needs to read the law book.

The decision last week was made by Garces and this week by Poite, they're different people, they will each interpret incidents in their own way. It's called human nature.
Personally, I think they'd showed courage by not being influenced by crowd noise or indeed the TMO who clearly WAS afraid of giving Williams a red card.

You want to complain about consistency? most referees will give a scrum penalty against the prop who ends up flat on his face having collapsed the scrum because his feet were too far back. Both Garces, last week, and Poite yesterday, seemed to ignore this when the All Blacks did it.
Poite yesterday reset a scrum umpteen times in an attempt to let Crockett off the hook, this having just awarded a penalty the other way in the exact same circumstances, right in front of the Lions posts.

Was he worse in the Hurricanes match? Personally, I think Kaino's yellow yesterday was harsh, as unlike Williams last week, it didn't look reckless or intentional, it was simply unfortunate.
Maybe that evens out with the yellow given against Henderson in the Hurricanes match which was equally harsh.

Personally, I think they both got most of the big decisions right in the tests.

As for style of play, obviously the Lions should just have turned up and let everyone run over them, how dare they compete!
I'm not Gatland's biggest fan,but the Lions evolved their style of play throughout the tour. Defence is as big a part of the game as attack. Both defences in the tests were massive, furthermore as I said earlier in the thread the try in the 1st test was one of the best I've ever seen.

I make Loftyhammer right.
Well, that's where it becomes interesting, because if the player grabs the ball with his hands, as he did, it's open to interpretation over whether or not it was a deliberate play of the ball. I can't be bothered trawling through everything to find the overlapping rules, but here's the point I'm getting at from some ref or another:

"If you catch a ball, that's not accidental," he said. "Accidental is when it deflects off and it hits you and you couldn't do anything about it ... but he clearly grabbed the ball.

"The other interesting thing that not too many people have talked about is why didn't he continue to play advantage from it? You can still play advantage from accidental off-side or a penalisable offence."

After Owens dropped the ball, it was recovered by All Blacks centre Anton Leinert-Brown, who had a clear run to the try-line, but was called back by Poite.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/ar ... d=11888105" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not actually criticising the red card for SBW, it was red. I also thought Kaino's was between a yellow or a red, as he made contact with the face, and that's the way it's been run in Super rugby this year. I haven't spoken to anyone here who thought that SBW shouldn't have been red carded.

I will strongly disagree about the Henderson yellow. To me that was a red, but like I say, they've been very harsh on these kinds of things in Super rugby this year, and differences in how NH and SH refs interpret the rules has been an issue since the first tour in 1888. If Barrett had of landed on his head he could have snapped his neck. Any lifting with that kind of motion can do a lot of damage. Just look at what happened to Brian O'Driscoll in the last tour (and yes Umaga and Mealamu were veeery lucky to get away with not being sanctioned).

I don't think the refs did that poorly in the tests, like you said, they got most of the big calls right. I'm not going to get into the scrums with you, I've long since accepted no ref has a clue what they're doing there. Again, not many in New Zealand would argue with you that Crockett constantly bores in on an angle and is generally a penalty waiting to happen, mostly due to his size. The scrums became an absolute farce by the end of the match, moving all over the place.

I'm certainly not trying to suggest the refs were the reason the series ended in a draw. As I said in my original post, the All Blacks knocked the ball on about three or four times with nothing but the try line in front of them. That's far more costly than any incorrect decision by the ref, which is only a small part of the ebb and flow of the game, I was just interested in how it was viewed from the other side. The Lions were a tough nut to crack as well.

Again, when I said I didn't enjoy the Lions play, it's because I remember them absolutely thumping teams in the midweek tests during the last tour and having a crack. I watch quite a bit of the club rugby and Six Nations over there, and it's not like players like Watson and Joseph ain't incredibly talented footballers capable of splitting teams apart. The same with guys like Sexton and Williams. You saw the result of it with that try in the first test.

All I'm trying to say is I don't know why they didn't go after midweek teams more. They were always going to play a structured game against the All Blacks, because Lord knows how they hate that, and they executed it to perfection. I haven't liked Gatland since he was in NZ, him being a Waikato man.. I don't know where 'Warrenball' came from, I'd say that's a reflection of how he thinks he might win the game, not the style he wants to play with. Rush defence to me is a hallmark of Gatland's rugby, the Chiefs still play it, and are still offside to this day! :lol:

Actually, I don't see how he could be accused of Warrenball when he changed to Sexton and Farrell. I thought that gave the Lions much more fluidity on attack. Like you say, he went adapting with the tour, and found the most effective way to nullify the Kiwi attack. I got the impression this affected the Lions' attack, in turn, and both teams ended up producing more defensive displays. I would have liked to see the Lions run with the ball like they did in the first test, and the All Blacks like they did in the third. That doesn't mean I wanted to see the Lions walked all over. I haven't enjoyed a test series this much in a long time, it had everything.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

Post by SRXT »

pablo jaye wrote:Like anything that the news channels run nowadays, they do hype things up unnecessarily and try to create new angles (or if you were a cynic ... agendas). Nothing different for the Lions - first it was the choice of Gatland as head coach, then it was his selection, then the results when we lost games .... funnily enough, things quietened down over the last couple of weeks, and it was a case of 'how dare the kiwi media make WG out to be a clown'.

The best (meaning, most over-hyped) coverage was Sky Sports .... billing things as life and death etc ....

To be honest, if you want the real story in today's world, you have to ignore most of the typed hype and make your own judgement.
Yeah, I found it strange, because it sounded like Warrenball was termed by the British media. Then the NZ media started saying the same and it was just ridiculous.

Before the test on the Saturday, I saw a reporter for NZ news saying 'for our win tonight', then streamed Sky Sports from over there and saw a Welsh reporter saying the same. :lol: Neither side had balance, hence why I thought I'd come in here and have a chat, because you have the media on either side making out that the other side is a cheat, when really there was a lot of rugby going on in between all that stuff, and I feel like it's been swept under the carpet.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

Post by pablo jaye »

Yes, you're right - the rugby was brushed under the carpet at times, but that is 24 hour media for you. Also glad that WG doesnt coach England.

In terms of the ABs in the third test - did you think that they began to get more and more frustrated as the game went on because they weren't putting the points on the board and pulling away from the other side. I've seen them in so many games build up a big lead and then when that didn't happen against the Lions, they almost appeared to panic. Not seen them play with that lack of cohesion for some time. Interesting to hear a Kiwi take on it.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

Post by SRXT »

It is, and it's disappointing, but oh well. You guys are very lucky to have Eddie Jones as coach. He's a great coach, and Farrell at 12 was probably more his idea than Gatland's (he did the same thing with Giteau in Aus).

I'm not sure what to say. I've never seen an All Black team bomb so many tries, and I don't know why that it is. You might be right that they panicked, I've seen similar things happen to Barrett playing against the Chiefs and Crusaders with the Hurricanes. The Hurricanes would play all the rugby, almost too much at times, and when they didn't score tries they weren't getting any points, so that reflects on the scoreboard.

I think we still miss the midfield of Smith and Nonu. Smith was a very calming influence, and while I think Lienert-Brown has a big future, through injury and suspension he ended up being the senior player in that pairing.

Savea, to me, is a negative influence in the changing room, I've heard of him being a dick when he's drunk, he tried to punch a friend of mine, and have seen him pissed off his face running around town in Wellington. Players like Nonu used to play like **** for the Hurricanes, then step up for the All Blacks. To me Savea's mind isn't in rugby any more, he's not doing that, and it's notable that his biggest contribution was dropping a ball that was right in the bread basket when all he had to do was trot over the line and score. I thought he'd turned a leaf after the WC in 2015, but now it seems like the opposite.

So, you've got a young back line alongside a veteran who should be helping out the youngsters and does the absolute opposite... if you want to know how fast his star is falling, he's also been dropped in place of Goosen for the Hurricanes a few times this season (Goosen scored a try against the Lions, good little player, I think and hope he goes far).

Did those players panic? I'm not sure. Did they know how to win in such a scenario? I don't think so. Graham Henry pointed out that a lot of players in the ABs haven't been there long and probably think they're better than they are. To a degree he's probably right, but the Lions looked better when they started controlling the tempo more, which I'm sorry, but that meant slowing it down. A lot of these guys wouldn't have played at that tempo having spent most of their time playing the Championship or Super rugby, and it made things disjointed in the AB backline where they needed someone capable of moving the ball away from Barrett and Smith.

Barrett's goal kicking didn't help though the first penalty wasn't a penalty anyway, so there's some poetic justice for you. I would have had Jordie Barrett kicking, he's been a lot better at it this year for the Canes, and by all means, this kid is going to be special, he's probably the most talented player in NZ at present, and only 20! He's unbelievably calm for his age. Also, I read recently the Barretts lived in Ireland for a bit, which I wasn't aware.. the brothers used to play GAA, and I think that shows when they link up for their crossfield kicks (Barrett's number one trick for the Canes this year).
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Re: British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

Post by the pink palermo »

I had the All Blacks Full back down as my MOTM .

The Lions had their arses spanked and were fortunate to get the draw .
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Re: British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

Post by 3times »

All the whinging Kiwi's get on my nerves. If we want to get pedantic about the decision watch it from when Barrett takes the KO.

Reid is very possibly offside for being in front of the kicker - penalty

Reid makes no attempt to challenge for the ball with Williams, he turns his back and jumps into him.

Don't see us moaning, and what about that the AB's are nearly always offside at the ruck and don't get pinged.

On the balance you will probably find they get away with far more than goes against them.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

Post by SRXT »

If you actually read my posts you'd probably see that I'm more bemoaning the fact that ref decisions detracted from what was a great series a lot. One penalty decision didn't cost the All Blacks the game.

All fans are biased and prone to whine, however. I actually saw Gatland moaning about reffing throughout the tour, then pretend he didn't. :lol:

I wouldn't be so daft as to think a coach reflects the fans, though. I will bite a little, though, if you want to talk about offside at the ruck I could counter that the lions were offside in general but then we'd go in circles.

There's a shot that makes it clear he was challenging the ball, but if he was offside at the KO, it doesn't matter though does it?
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Re: British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

Post by 3times »

Wasn't a dig at you SRXT. More so those on other forums (that I don't subscribe to) etc. Some give balanced views but most are a bit whiny.

Over the tour both teams have got away with things. Also if that decision was in the middle of the game it would not have attracted so much attention.

Interestingly my son was looking at a review yesterday where some refs had analysed the whole thing. They felt that Reid was onside, he did challenge for the ball but the ball did not go forward from Williams and as Owens was trying to get onside and his grabbing and releasing the ball was a reaction meant that a scrum was the right call. Although it did say that Poite went about the decision in the wrong way.

Reading the law 11 all the way through it gets a bit contradictory but I think the word in 'intentional' when relating to the player being offside and the ball being played to him.

All about opinions!!
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Re: British & Irish Lions Tour to NZ 2017

Post by SRXT »

Sorry about that in that case. :oops:

I think in the middle of the game he wouldn't have doubted himself and gone and made an (in)correct call like he had done already during the game (for both sides), but as it had the potential to decide the game and the series, the moment got to him a bit, and it seemed to me that he was influenced by Lions players when he shouldn't have been. He then closed dialogue with Read immediately after having done that, which was probably the most frustrating part to me.

The thing with the analysis is that you have the exact same thing going on here arguing why it was a penalty, because, like you say, the law is very grey. What is intentional? Was he in line with the player and did the ball go side ways? Usually, the fact that he caught the ball, no matter how reactionary, is blown up as a penalty (if it did go forward).

Like I said, it would have been tough, a bit like the match winning penalty in game two, because still, more than a hundred years later, rugby rules can still be vague, poorly interpreted, or contradictory, hence why a lot of people new to the sport lose interest. Tackling a player in the air is a little clearer in the law book, however. That's not the players' fault, though, and probably not even the ref's! That's what I talk about with consistency, but it's a wider problem. Similar issues pop up in Super rugby, yet if you look at something like football or rugby league, sanctions in regards to yellow or red cards are something that's pre-decided by and large.

But that was just 30 seconds of the game, I actually think Kaino's yellow card was where the game turned. Lions only scored 3 points, which was good for the All Blacks, but it/they killed the momentum they had from the first half, which was good the Lions, and the All Blacks never got it back. It was a yellow to me, tbh. Poor Kaino, subbed early in the first test, replaced even earlier in the second because of SBW's red card, then cops a yellow in the third (though I don't think it was intentional).
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