West Ham accounts reveal loss of £37m

[old fart]

Can someone explain the structure of the companies for those of us with a headache over all this.

As far as I can work out it used to be
Hansa
West Ham Holding
West Ham PLC

For a start can someone explain what West Ham Holding is doing in there if it only held one company? Why the extra layer.
Now we are held by CB what is the structure?
When the sale to CB was announced no mention of West Ham Holding was made, were both West Ham holding and PLC sold or just the PLC?
If just the PLC what happened to West Ham holding and more importantly it's debts?

WH holding ltd is:

West ham united PLC
West ham united FC plc
West ham united sportswear ltd
West ham united Hospitality ltd
West ham united FC ltd (non-trading)
Thames Ironworks & shipbuilding co ltd (non-trading)





v

[Major]

37Mill???

Duckers must have employed my **** of an ex missus. She really is good a bleeding things dry.

I now there are a lot of i told you so's on here but has anyone gone back far enough to when Brown went and a few of us were saying, be careful what you wish for!!!!

[SBB]

So the club is actually worth £85m, minus £36m, which equals £49m.

I therefore apologise for stating consistently over the past 12 months that West Ham was only worth £50m. Evidently I overstated its value.

Now would all those who have deluded themselves that any sane investor would ever pay anything approaching £150m please get a f*cking grip and enter the real world ...

Was this a serious post or a joke?

Assuming it was serious...................What the **** are you talking about CB. Thats not how business is valued in any industry let alone sport!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
First of all the debt is considered to be part of the going concern (or not) that is being purchased, not simply deducted from what the last owner payed for the club. My God are people really that stupid.
Over and above the many ways a business can be valued, there are 2 overriding factors. What the seller wants for it, and what someone is prepared to pay. very often these figures in all business bear no relation to any of the above. Its supply and demand.
Assuming you were going to value it according to some formula, you would need to take into account asset values, freeholds, player valuations, goodwill, future forecasted earnings amongst a million other things. This would be done on the basis that the business would continue to service its own debt as part of daily operation.

Jesus Christ, if your valuation technique was applied, Man U would be worth approx minus £350M right now. Thank you very much Mr Glazer I'll take your club and a nice fat cheque on top - Ta Very much. Dont even get me started on Chelsea, that would be a peach to pick up on this basis.

BTW if it was a joke (I so hope it was) ...apologies

[Georgee Paris]

Alright mr ****ing clever b*llocks - get your Btec in accounting bonce around this little beauty - So is West ham worth more or less than C Ronaldo or 1,5000,000 Puffins armed in the ancient art of Ninjutsu equally dangerous in Air, Aquatics and on land where it is also worth mentioning they are capable of burrowing much to the surprise of an army of equally well trained badgers?

[SBB]

Alright mr f***ing clever b***ocks - get your Btec in accounting bonce around this little beauty - So is West ham worth more or less than C Ronaldo or 1,5000,000 Puffins armed in the ancient art of Ninjutsu equally dangerous in Air, Aquatics and on land where it is also worth mentioning they are capable of burrowing much to the surprise of an army of equally well trained badgers?

You dont need a ****ing btec in anything just half a brain, and clearly the half your hosting has too much time on its hands

[Georgee Paris]

You dont need a f***ing btec in anything just half a brain, and clearly the half your hosting has too much time on its hands

Ha ha - you have a btec!

[SBB]

Ha ha - you have a btec!

I desperately wanted to come back with something cocky there but still laughing - touche

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

WH holding ltd is:

West ham united PLC
West ham united FC plc
West ham united sportswear ltd
West ham united Hospitality ltd
West ham united FC ltd (non-trading)
Thames Ironworks & shipbuilding co ltd (non-trading)

Cheers OF that explains the wh holding bit.
I assume then it was wh holding that cbh took over rather than west ham fc as is reported in the press. I had this feint hope that the goodwill debt was all wh holding and it had been allowed to die.

So I may be finally getting my head around all this, WH Holding vastly overpaid for West Ham plc in an accounting trick and that money was spent on players that we couldn't really afford. Now, even though the debt is not the football clubs as such, CBH need to recover WH Holdings debts by selling us for top dollar. Is that right?

If so just how liable for our holding companies debts are we? Is it possible that WH Holding can go bust and the companies it held carry on? Without the debt the holding company created we seem pretty viable.

[PrawnSandwich]

Georgee Paris you crack me up.

[Hambrosia Stu]

I now there are a lot of i told you so's on here but has anyone gone back far enough to when Brown went and a few of us were saying, be careful what you wish for!!!!

It's a good point.

Personally, I was somewhat sucked in, I wouldn't say I felt the Icelandicks were some sort of dream ticket, but more like that compared to Kia, they seemed a much better option. Makes you wonder how Kia could have been any worse?!

Oh for the benefit of hindsight

[Hummer_I_mean_Hammer]

I'm like Bonnie Tyler - holding out for a hero

more like a total eclipse of the heart

[bobd_uk]

Makes you wonder how Kia could have been any worse?!

When he left Corinthians (having taken all their best players), they had £100m of debt and got relegated!

(Not saying that the Icelandics were much better - just that, with hindsight, we seem to have had 2 crappy alternatives!)

[Fionn]

37Mill???

Duckers must have employed my c*** of an ex missus. She really is good a bleeding things dry.

I now there are a lot of i told you so's on here but has anyone gone back far enough to when Brown went and a few of us were saying, be careful what you wish for!!!!

It was worth it to get rid of that **** Brown.

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

Makes you wonder how Kia could have been any worse?!

Would this have avoided all the Tevez contoversy or would the contract still have been an issue?

[Kent Bubble Blower]

Makes you wonder how Kia could have been any worse?!

[Would this have avoided all the Tevez contoversy or would the contract still have been an issue?

Without getting sidetracked into the Tevez thing again, in my understanding the offending side-clauses would have become null and void as the third party, Kia, would've been the club's owner, therefore no longer a third party.

[QuintonNimoy]

I assume then it was wh holding that cbh took over rather than west ham fc as is reported in the press. I had this feint hope that the goodwill debt was all wh holding and it had been allowed to die.

So I may be finally getting my head around all this....

Any further thoughts on which group Igoe was talking about when it came to broken banking covenants, or what the difference might have been between Dux and Igoe's comments?

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

Without getting sidetracked into the Tevez thing again, in my understanding the offending side-clauses would have become null and void as the third party, Kia, would've been the club's owner, therefore no longer a third party.

As you say probably for a different thread I was just curious as there would have still been a period of time when the clause was in force. As it turns out neither of our options where all that hot, makes you wonder why people assume the new owner will be any different.
Not many of the so called money men seem to have done much good for any of the clubs they have got involved in. Liverpool, Arsenal and Man U all hocked up to the gills and one missed CL qualification from disaster. Chelsea and City would vanish over night if their sugar daddies find a new toy, us and pompey on the brink of disaster, fulham being funded out of harrods, a number of clubs not releasing accounts.

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

Any further thoughts on which group Igoe was talking about when it came to broken banking covenants, or what the difference might have been between Dux and Igoe's comments?

I still don't think it is clear which group broke it's covenants (although it looks likely everyone did ) and I am not totally sure who runs what part of the group. Do Dux and Igoe run WH Holding in any way?

If they only run the football club and it was WH Holding or Hansa that broke covenants then both their statements could be true. We (the football club) didn't break covenants - duxs comment. The group (hansa or WH Holding) broke it's covenants - Igoes comment.

After 12 years reading New Labour press releases I can pretty much read any comment and get it to say anything I want

[Hambrosia Stu]

When he left Corinthians (having taken all their best players), they had £100m of debt and got relegated!

(Not saying that the Icelandics were much better - just that, with hindsight, we seem to have had 2 crappy alternatives!)

Indeed. It does seem that it was a choice between a chancer and a charlatan, so not much of a choice. I guess there is the argument that despite our current predicament, the Icelandics might still have been the better option...

As you say probably for a different thread I was just curious as there would have still been a period of time when the clause was in force. As it turns out neither of our options where all that hot, makes you wonder why people assume the new owner will be any different.

Not many of the so called money men seem to have done much good for any of the clubs they have got involved in.

Very true

We've seen how a so called mega-rich owner is not always the holy grail it might seem to be. I hope we've learnt from our mistakes of the past, though I guess there's not much any of us can do if an equally shady figure stumps up the money the club

Which makes me favour a smaller, perhaps UK based, consortium/owner. Someone who isn't looking to make the CL in 5 years, but someone willing to invest where needed, but essentially let the club take care of itself, and see where prudent (not in the Gordon Brown sense of the word!) careful management can take us

[QuintonNimoy]

If they only run the football club and it was WH Holding or Hansa that broke covenants then both their statements could be true. We (the football club) didn't break covenants - duxs comment. The group (hansa or WH Holding) broke it's covenants - Igoes comment.

Yeah, I thought that might be the case. The club's individual position is solid because it kept it's nose clean, but this morass of surrounding companies got into trouble. Not sure who then has authority to do what, but presumably banks can't reach through the holding shell and mess about with the internal companies if those companies are themselves OK (the exact content of the covenants is probably key here). Until they own us of course, then they can do what the hell they like.