1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:05 pm

Pop Robson wrote:The Complete Record 1900-1987 by John Northcutt and Roy Shoesmith

1929/30 Stats page has the FA Cup game as an away game, but on p.42 ....."The highest attendance of the season at Upton Park saw a sixth-round FA Cup tie against Arsenal"

Looks like John and Roy's stats have been copied onto various other books and the West Ham stats website, as John Northcutt own book has it down as a home game.

Even a photo in West Ham United: An Illustrated History by John and Roy again , states Highbury

Edit: Bloody statto's even they make a typo, (thats copied into almost every WHU book!)



Two problems here....

1. Here we have a game in which neither team plays in its first colours, and one of two games the teams played just a week separated. A check verifies Arsenals second strip, so were probably dealing with West Ham Arsenal as the title says.

2. We rule out Highbury due to the ground layout, it's the Boleyn so certainly West Ham Arsenal, but is it the league game that's listed in the stats as at the Boleyn, or was the FA cup tie listed as played at Highbury really played at the Boleyn ?

The problem with errors is that they get copied to elsewhere, and before you know it everywhere you look you see the error and take it to be the truth - That's what happened with the pink kits, one error copied here there and everywhere and before you know it it's taken us weeks and weeks to get to what was actually the case....

It gets so as the only way to resolve the question is to go to the primary sources, to go to Stratford library and look up the original local paper reports of the two games.

The way things are going this thread could be running for some time :think:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby clawhammer on Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:09 pm

Mushy will never go home at this rate!
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:12 pm

clawhammer wrote:Mushy will never go home at this rate!


It's a pity this problem didn't crop up a few days back, he's down there today and could easily have checked Headbanger
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby QuintonNimoy on Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:13 pm

The Times online archive might be useful for something so late on (1930s), but you have to pay to access it now.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:31 pm

The Wiki 1929/30 FA cup page says it was at the Boleyn....

Stato also says Boleyn http://www.statto.com/football/stats/en ... results/r6
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Green Hornet on Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:50 pm

Just a few observations. Firstly, people here are convinced the stadium in the footage is the Boleyn Ground and have convinced me. I stand corrected on that.

Which game is it ? Well, the Pathé News clip clearly states that Baker scores the first goal for Arsenal and that they went on to win the game 3-0. It seems more likely to me that Pathé would film an FA Cup game (the 1929 Bournemouth footage is also a cup game). The clincher is an FA Cup symbol at the top of the inter-title halfway through the clip.

West Ham's shirts seem to be one colour. I can't see any kind of change between the body of the shirt and the arms. I can only surmise there was some kind of rule in a one off FA Cup tie that, if there was a colour clash, both teams would have to wear change strip.

I looked at the clip in full screen and in my opinion the West Ham defender pushes the ball wide of the goal. Quite why the referee needed to consult his linesman... well, some things never change

The West Ham player appealing to the ref... I've no idea.

One final item. This is a link to a commemorative Trading Card set on Ebay. It does appear to feature the cover of a West Ham programme and at the very bottom it looks to me like it refers to the next home game which is also Arsenal:: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Arsenal-FA-Cup-Wi ... 4001r30969" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Eggchaser on Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:06 pm

Ironworx wrote:
The way things are going this thread could be running for some time :think:


That's ok, it's a darn site more interesting than 'West Ham For Sale' or 'Eidur Gidfuckinjonnson' :lol:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby mushy on Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:17 pm

Ironworx wrote:It's a pity this problem didn't crop up a few days back, he's down there today and could easily have checked Headbanger


Yup and just backand exhausted! Was a poor haul today, went through the entire season for 1899-1900 in both the East Ham Echo and the West Ham Guardian and could not find one single reference to the colour of the kit.
However the one titbit of useful info comes from the start of the 1900/01 season.
Source-West Ham Guardian
Date Wednesday Sept 5th 1900.
'The commitee have wisely decided not to have such a conspicuous display of red, white and blue this year. The vermilion stockings have been replaced by black and a red stripe is run down the leg of the trousers'.
So from that it looks like we wore some sort of red, white and blue kit in 1899-1900, could this be the stripey one referred to on Historical kits? Vermilion is I think red by the way..
Anyway all is not lost as the kind lady down there has offered to help and she has suggested the Stratford Express -which we will have a go at possibly on Thursday.
As for the West Ham Arse game, never looked on any newspaper reports but did see a John Northcutt book which clearly says it was a home game (the cup game we lost 0-3).
There was also a Brian Belton book which says we had a red,white and blue kit for season 1899-1900, but does not say where this info was gleamed from or a description of the kit.

Thats all I got today I am afraid.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Up the Junction on Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:46 pm

mushy wrote:Vermilion is I think red by the way.

Could it be a Victorian description of claret? They're not a million miles apart.

:thup: once again Mushy.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:35 pm

You have come up with the goods.....

Source-West Ham Guardian
Date Wednesday Sept 5th 1900.
'The commitee have wisely decided not to have such a conspicuous display of red, white and blue this year. The vermilion stockings have been replaced by black and a red stripe is run down the leg of the trousers'.


Vermillion refers to the scarlet socks that were dropped for black ones in the first season as WHU, we already knew that from other sources but you've found a primary source that is beyond any doubt....

In those days red was used for claret, red is used everywhere where we would today use claret, that's why they've used vermillion to describe the what we would call scarlet socks....

I'll get it off to Historical Kits :clap:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby mushy on Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:55 pm

Ironworx wrote:You have come up with the goods.....

Source-West Ham Guardian
Date Wednesday Sept 5th 1900.
'The commitee have wisely decided not to have such a conspicuous display of red, white and blue this year. The vermilion stockings have been replaced by black and a red stripe is run down the leg of the trousers'.


Vermillion refers to the scarlet socks that were dropped for black ones in the first season as WHU, we already knew that from other sources but you've found a primary source that is beyond any doubt....

In those days red was used for claret, red is used everywhere where we would today use claret, that's why they've used vermillion to describe the what we would call scarlet socks....

I'll get it off to Historical Kits :clap:


Great but do you have any idea what the red,white and blue kits looked like or are we assuming they are the same ones as worn before?
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:41 pm

Cuenca 'ammer wrote:All these bloody references to bunging the clothes in a washing machine....When do you think that they were invented you eedjits !!!


Ted Fenton wrote:Hand or foot-pedal powered 'drum' washing machines were around in Victorian times. The first effective/reliable electrically powered washing machine was marketed in 1908.
This sticks in my memory because when I was young, the mother of a girl I was keen on was having problems with her washing machine. She mentioned that her parents looked at washing machines (would have been around WW1 time) but decided they were too pricey, "We couldn't afford a washing machine so the servants had to continue doing the washing by hand."


You knew someone with a washing machine ??? Bloody 'ell you moved in rich circles.. We (me dear old nan) had a gas boiler in the kitchen which doubled up for bath water on Friday nights in front of the fire... Best part about being a kid was you got the clean water....

:lol:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:50 pm

mushy wrote:
Great but do you have any idea what the red,white and blue kits looked like or are we assuming they are the same ones as worn before?



Yes, the same as before, there was no change from 1897/8 through 1898/9 and 1899-1900.

Image

Only the scarlet (vermilion) socks were dropped for black ones in 1900/01.

Image

A bit of historical explanation. The blue shirt, white shorts, and scarlet (vermilion) socks were the colours of Old Castle Swifts, the team that united with Thames Ironworks FC in 1895. Blue and white were the commercial colours of the Castle Mail Packet Company, scarlet was the colour of their steamer funnels. The Castle yard was directly opposite the Ironworks in Bow Creek, Bow Creek is on the opposite bank of the Thames to the present day site of the Dome.

In 1900 the Thames Ironworks had become a company owned by shareholders rather than owned by Arnold Hills, therefore Arnold Hills could no longer subsidise the Thames Ironworks football team from Ironworks coffers, it had to become a company in its own right. So Thames Ironworks FC was wound up at the end of season 1899-1900 and West Ham United was formed...

West Ham as they were allowed by Arnold Hills to continue to play at the Ironworks sports ground (the Memorial Ground) which is very close to West Ham station, United refers to the union of the Castle and Ironworks teams five years earlier in 1895.

So now we have a team no longer called Thames Ironworks FC, playing in Castle Mail Packet Company colours, called West Ham United and playing at the Ironworks sports ground, which brings us to what you've found today....

The committee added a claret stripe to the shorts - claret being the commercial colour of the ironworks, the clarets for the Ironworks ! Because they added claret they dropped the scarlet (vermillion) as that would look odd. It all makes sense....

So 1900/01 we've got the team playing in Castle blue shirts, Castle white shorts with an Ironworks claret stripe on them, and black socks....

Image

Season 1901/02 an Ironworks claret hoop is added to the shirt and Ironworks claret socks are added too....

Image

Season 1903/4 an Ironworks claret body is added to the shirt, leaving the Castle blue sleeves and Castle white shorts, and the socks are Ironworks claret too. That's about half and half Castle and Ironworks and it's the colours that have endured to this day.

Image

Brilliant stuff, the whole early history of the club has come together :clap:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby cockney hammer on Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:48 pm

top work mushy respect
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Pop Robson on Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:01 pm

cockney hammer wrote:top work mushy respect


Cheers mushy

This is what history lessons should consist of and the war
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Pop Robson on Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:06 pm

Green Hornet wrote:One final item. This is a link to a commemorative Trading Card set on Ebay. It does appear to feature the cover of a West Ham programme and at the very bottom it looks to me like it refers to the next home game which is also Arsenal:: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Arsenal-FA-Cup-Wi ... 4001r30969" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


:thup:

One small mistake by our own statto's and records are changed for a long time, until now
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Bobby Orangeboom on Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:36 am

Ironworx wrote:
While that's true of a single photo or even photos, it isn't true of a train of evidence including photos and other sources.

Black and white photos are not totally useless they are just unreliable, it is possible to tell the difference between say a striped and plain kit, there may also be comparisons within the same photo like in the 1899 Thames Iron photo with two kits in the same photo...

Then if you know the colours but not the combination of them you can tell from B&W photos provided that the colours are of sufficiently different shades....

It should be borne in mind that different colours of similar darkness will appear the same in B&W photos, so if you don't know the colour then they're not much good in that respect, but where the colour is not in dispute then its a different matter....

It should be borne in mind that the photo may well not be the same as when it was taken due to deterioration over the years, it may lose mid shades to white, or it may darken so as lighter shades appear black, and it may do both of those things uniformly or patchily...

So the 1900 West Ham photo in which the kit appears white may genuinely have been white or maybe Castle blue shirts have faded through deterioration to white, there's no way of telling, the photo in itself is unreliable....

But when that photo is presented with another photo showing the same thing, a definite primary source of the same thing, and a highly probable primary source of the same thing, then it's part of a train of evidence that is much more reliable than it's individual components.


But excuse my ignorance, isn't that the dispute here completely ??

I mean, that Picture of the 1900 Team where the Shirt looks White, or at least a very light Colour & possibly the same Colour as the Shorts, at first glance anyway doesn't it ??

& that's the only Photographic evidence we have of that Season i believe, that is part of the Train of evidence we now have for it isn't it ??

I suppose it doesn't really matter what Colour that is does it, as the Train has estabished that our Primary Colour was the Castle Blue so that Kit could have been White or any other light Colour, who's to say that Picture wasn't taken at an Away Game or when we were in our change Strip for whatever reason..
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby The Old Mile End on Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:04 am

mushy wrote:Vermilion is I think red by the way.
Could it be a Victorian description of claret? They're not a million miles apart.


Hate to say it - but vermilion is a sort of orangey-red colour. When faded, it could quite easily look.....salmon pink. :think: Lucky it was only on the socks though. Got any of those Bobby? :wink:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Pop Robson on Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:51 am

Did you know there is at least 2 games in our recent history that we have had to wear the opposition's socks, as there was a colour clash (or Eddie Gillam didn't pack them!).

No prizes but can anyone name the games?
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:58 am

Bobby Orangeboom wrote:
But excuse my ignorance, isn't that the dispute here completely ??

I mean, that Picture of the 1900 Team where the Shirt looks White, or at least a very light Colour & possibly the same Colour as the Shorts, at first glance anyway doesn't it ??

& that's the only Photographic evidence we have of that Season i believe, that is part of the Train of evidence we now have for it isn't it ??

I suppose it doesn't really matter what Colour that is does it, as the Train has estabished that our Primary Colour was the Castle Blue so that Kit could have been White or any other light Colour, who's to say that Picture wasn't taken at an Away Game or when we were in our change Strip for whatever reason..


There is no dispute full stop.

We have non photographic primary source evidence from two different sources for the blue kit, Mushy and John Northcutt both came up with that within four hours of one another, Mushy won by a short head...

And we also have non photographic primary source evidence for the white kit, also from Mushy...

Anything in photographs is a long way second place to that, and only serves to confirm what we are already certain of.
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