Captain Kevin Nolan

[steptoe61]

I wonder if he will play Saturday..............

[beckton]

Nah.

[Hockley Hammer]

[.
Hockley, for me, Nolan is definitely a problem at times, especially when we are playing at home. As often as it has been his goals that have got us the 3 points, I personally feel like with someone else in his place, be it Jack, Lansbury or more recently, Ravel, we may have got 3 points from the games that we have drawn, i.e. Boro where he was as I have seen all too often, completely anonymous.

Whilst I can definitely agree with those who point out Doncaster and Brighton away, Coventry at home as games where Nolan has been the difference between 1 point and 3 points... I can't help but wonder, in how many games has an anonymous Nolan perhaps resulted in us getting a draw instead of a win. Would Collison or Ravel have brought more to those specific games in that position? Looking at Boro the other night, I genuinely feel that someone else in place of Nolan from the start might have resulted in us providing more pace and attacking threat on the ground, and maybe we would have scored more than the one that we did.

I think there is definitely a case to be made that Big Kev is a little bit of a luxury. 9 goals, many of them crucial and I am incredibly thankful for, no doubt. But what else? 0 assists is absolutely terrible for an advanced midfielder, however you look at it.

When he doesn't score, he really doesn't add much to the team's actual play at all.

It's the same argument though again, what MIGHT happen.

Brilliant against Blackpool because Nolan was missing, but nothing about how awful we were against Palace - because Nolan was missing?

The argument that if he doesn't score he doesn't add much to the team, well who else is going to score the goals?

Our best striker is only level with him.

The rest of the midfield players in the entire squad might just about beat his total of goals in open play.

Assists? Somebody will get an assist for Faye's goal the other night

Nine assists in our team are for Nolan's goals, I have yet to see another midfielder get into the forward positions he does, and haven't for several seasons. I have always presumed that is what he is there for to finish off moves that have gone to waste for years.

In a squad that has generally underperformed (especially as an attacking unit) the most criticised player is the one doing what he was paid to do - lead the side and score goals.

If he was bought to do anything else then he has underperformed and he is in good company so far this season.

[The Moth]

Just to clarify, we're pointing the finger at Nolan even though we admit that his 9 goals have been crucial, but he doesn't offer nothing else.

Any more crucial than Coles 9 goals in only 21 starts? Or Baldocks 5 in 10 starts?

What's your thinking behind Noble, Faubert and Collison then out of curiosity, with 4 goals between them from open play and 12 assists, in 85 starts between them ??

Why open play only? A goals a goal bob and Nobles got 7 this season. Again , equally as crucial as any other players goals be it open play, freekick or penalties. He's also got 5 assists for the team.

As for Collison, 3 goals thus far is not what you or I expected from him at the start of the season, although I didn't expect him to spend most of the season playing wide of a five man midfield, a role that not only doesn't suit him but is also incredibley demanding physically. Given his fitness issues over the past couple seasons, this has been an act of total miss management IMO. Again he has 3 assist to his name which should be taken into account when evaluating his performances.

Combining Noble, Jack and Fauberts performances, the result is 11 goals in 90 games. About 1 in 8. Not good enough IMO.

But I do agree we're are short of goals from midfield, I suppose thats why we were prepared to pay around 5mill + a 55k pw 5 year contract for our star player and goal scoring specialist, unheard of figures in this league. As well as this we signed Taylor and Carew who have managed a total of 41 appearances for a return of 4 goals(3 if we don't count set pieces ). So thats 3 established players from the premier league who have given us 13 goals in 74 games combined. About 1 in 5.7 . Still not good enough IMO and all Allardyce signings on (relatively) big money brought in to score/provide goals.

In conclusion, we had the chance to add goals to the team and spent big to do so. To point the finger at 3 players left over from last season debacle , players who have never scored a large number of goals for our team is a bit ingenious IMO. Allardyce had the chance to add the goals this team required and has failed to do so.

Thats not to mention Vaz Te ,Maynard and Baldock, three hungry young proven (lower league) goalscorers . IMO it's clear Allaryce has failed to get the best out of our vast and more than adequate attacking options.

[Hockley Hammer]

Thats not to mention Vaz Te ,Maynard and Baldock, three hungry young proven (lower league) players. IMO it's clear Allaryce has failed to get the best out of our vast and more than adequate attacking options.

A much better subject for debate (would not include Vaz Te though).....although it will end up Nolan's fault

[Bobby Orangeboom]

Any more crucial than Coles 9 goals in only 21 starts? Or Baldocks 5 in 10 starts?

Not sure about more crucial as all goals are crucial aren't they including penalties, but both are forwards that you mentioned, Nolan's a midfielder, that's why i'm more inclined to defend him than not as like Hockley said earlier, his goals SHOULD have been bonus goals for us, instead they're now being deemed as necessary.

Why open play only? A goals a goal bob and Nobles got 7 this season. Again , equally as crucial as any other players goals be it open play, freekick or penalties. He's also got 5 assists for the team.

Why only open play ?? Are you serious ?? Anyone could be the penalty taker, Rob Green, Joey O Brien, Carlton Cole, Mark Noble or Kevin Nolan. It just so happens to be Noble which i'm glad for as he has a very decent record so happy days, but to question why i'm talking about open play & highlighting it is a little.......... to say the least

As for Collison, 3 goals thus far is not what you or I expected from him at the start of the season, although I didn't expect him to spend most of the season playing wide of a five man midfield, a role that not only doesn't suit him but is also incredibley demanding physically. Given his fitness issues over the past couple seasons, this has been an act of total miss management IMO. Again he has 3 assist to his name which should be taken into account when evaluating his performances.

The Collison argument is dragging and i'm only hearing the same " he gets played out of position " even though he's a midfielder playing in the midfield. Maybe ask yourself the question why 3 or maybe even 4 Managers have now played him " out of position " and chose a whole host of different players to play in " Jacks position " ?

Combining Noble, Jack and Fauberts performances, the result is 11 goals in 90 games. About 1 in 8. Not good enough IMO.

It's actually a lot closer to 1 in 9 but if you want 1 in 8 as it makes you able to justify it better, feel free. You can even include the 7 x 12 yard, under no pressure, spot kicks too that makes things seem a whole lot rosier..& you're damn right it's not good enough and i'd however prefer to look at 4 goals from our other 3 midfielders who are regular fixtures in our team, in open play, from 85 games between them, which is borderline pathetic.

But I do agree we're are short of goals from midfield, I suppose thats why we were prepared to pay around 5mill + a 55k pw 5 year contract for our star player and goal scoring specialist, unheard of figures in this league. As well as this we signed Taylor and Carew who have managed a total of 41 appearances for a return of 4 goals(3 if we don't count set pieces ). So thats 3 established players from the premier league who have given us 13 goals in 74 games combined. About 1 in 5.7 . Still not good enough IMO and all Allardyce signings on (relatively) big money brought in to score/provide goals.

Ahhhhh so that IS what it is after all, " our boys " against " his boys "..Now i understand.

In conclusion, we had the chance to add goals to the team and spent big to do so. To point the finger at 3 players left over from last season debacle , players who have never scored a large number of goals for our team is a bit ingenious IMO. Allardyce had the chance to add the goals this team required and has failed to do so.

I've heard it all now, now it's not their fault because they were part of the shambles that were last year. Bwah.

Thats not to mention Vaz Te ,Maynard and Baldock, three hungry young proven (lower league) goalscorers . IMO it's clear Allaryce has failed to get the best out of our vast and more than adequate attacking options.

2 have been at the Club for 6 weeks yet the Manager's being blamed for " not getting the best out of them ", the other i believe should have started more games, especially at home...

[Korea Hammer]

I'm with you on most of what you say, Bobby, but the stickler in me has to confirm that 11 goals in 90 games is almost exactly 1 in 8 (which would be 88),and not closer to 1 in 9 (which would be 99).

Sorry. Carry on.

[bristolhammerfc]

Kevin Nolan is an asset to the team. He is great as an attacking midfielder and has scored important goals.

Mark Noble is an asset to the team. He is great as a central midfielder, is a confident penalty taker and has added assists to his goalscoring. He struggles to play in a flat 4-4-2 with Nolan and vice versa.

Jack Collison has had the potential to play as a holding midfielder, he hasnt been consistent, scored many important goals or added assists to his game this season.

Sam has to choose a team to meet his objectives as set by the owners. He has decided that Nolan and Noble give him a better chance of doing that.

We can still speculate as to whether the players perform to their best or not, whether the formation suits them and how it effects the style of play.

[hadleighhammer]

Thought against Boro he looked good with the ball. Made some incisive passes. Without it, still the same un-fit/un-bothered reaction to getting it back at many times (one example when Collison and Noble ran past him to get back in position when he lost it).

Despite his goals and pointing and shouting, still not convinced he does enough to warrant a guaranteed starting place, let alone £4m + signing on fee and £50k/week over 5 years of our limited budget.

[Bobby Orangeboom]

I'm with you on most of what you say, Bobby, but the stickler in me has to confirm that 11 goals in 90 games is almost exactly 1 in 8 (which would be 88),and not closer to 1 in 9 (which would be 99).

Sorry. Carry on.

Ok, he can definitely have that aswell then...

[The Moth]

Why only open play ?? Are you serious ?? Anyone could be the penalty taker, Rob Green, Joey O Brien, Carlton Cole, Mark Noble or Kevin Nolan. It just so happens to be Noble

The point i'm making is a goal from a set piece is worth the same as a goal from open play. Those 18 goals nolan scored for newcastle last season included a number of penalties I'd imagine but come end of the season they all count in terms of points they win and goal differences.

The Collison argument is dragging and i'm only hearing the same " he gets played out of position " even though he's a midfielder playing in the midfield. Maybe ask yourself the question why 3 or maybe even 4 Managers have now played him " out of position " and chose a whole host of different players to play in " Jacks position " ?

Are seriously suggesting the demands on a wide midfield player in a 5 man midfield is the same as a central player? Or an attacking mid role like Nolan plays? Or even a wide player in a dimaond formation like under zola? Theres a huge difference which I'll be amazed if you can't see for yourself.

It's actually a lot closer to 1 in 9 but if you want 1 in 8 as it makes you able to justify it better, feel free.

I don't have to do the maths for you do I? And penalties are taken under no pressure?

Ahhhhh so that IS what it is after all, " our boys " against " his boys "..Now i understand.

Incorrect and just your slant on what I'm outlining. I'm comparing 3 players who have been at the club for a number of years who have never produced a large number of goals to players singed this season in order to provide additional attacking ability. Please don't conject what I've written.

I've heard it all now, now it's not their fault because they were part of the shambles that were last year. Bwah.

Again , you putting you're own tiresome slant on things.

2 have been at the Club for 6 weeks yet the Manager's being blamed for " not getting the best out of them ", the other i believe should have started more games, especially at home...

Have we not got a problem scoring goals? Have we not got the players at our disposal to score goals at this level? If the answer is yes than , IMO, the issue is down to how these players are being utilised. That means the system in place, the roles they are given and the tactics deployed. As I said, he ain't getting the best out of the attacking players collectively, otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate.

[fjthegrey]

Not sure about more crucial as all goals are crucial aren't they including penalties, but both are forwards that you mentioned, Nolan's a midfielder, that's why i'm more inclined to defend him than not as like Hockley said earlier, his goals SHOULD have been bonus goals for us, instead they're now being deemed as necessary.

I disagree with the idea that Nolan's goals shouldn't necessarily be deemed a necessity. The team is built to accommodate him. It functions, largely, to support him and the way he plays. To suggest that because he's a midfielder his goals should be considered as a bonus is laughable when you take into account his position in the team.

Without those goals his tangible contribution becomes virtually non-existent. Nolan's goals have to be expected and perhaps demanded just the same as our strikers.

[Bobby Orangeboom]

The point i'm making is a goal from a set piece is worth the same as a goal from open play.

It's a point really that my 6 year old Girl would agree with, however i thought we could have a little bit of an advanced debate as to the understanding that although they of course are worth the same, the merits of not actually scoring from open play are not really very impressive for a central midfielder at all.. However of course you use penalty's as a way to justify and argue that scoring no goals from open play from central midfield, is in fact ok after all. Which strikes me as obscene but it's your view and i'll have a wry smile and accept it, of course.


Are seriously suggesting the demands on a wide midfield player in a 5 man midfield is the same as a central player? Or an attacking mid role like Nolan plays? Or even a wide player in a dimaond formation like under zola? Theres a huge difference which I'll be amazed if you can't see for yourself.

Don't answer the " Jack position " question & instead try to be sarcy, good one one Mothy.

I don't have to do the maths for you do I? And penalties are taken under no pressure?

No immediate direct physical pressure no, psychological pressure yes, physical no, none at all and i don't have a silly yellow thing laughing when i say that neither.

Incorrect and just your slant on what I'm outlining. I'm comparing 3 players who have been at the club for a number of years who have never produced a large number of goals to players singed this season in order to provide additional attacking ability. Please don't conject what I've written.

It's not incorrect at all and i will conject if i so wish to do so Mothy, this is a public discussion forum Fella/Luv..

Your retort to my criticism of players that were here before Allardyce were to blame Allardyce and blame his signings as if that some how made things ok or at least put " them " on a par with the players mentioned, if not trying to make them look worse, here's what you said " and all Allardyce signings.... " - " Allardyce had the chance to add the goals this team required and has failed to do so " - " Allaryce has failed to get the best out of ...".

That clearly suggests a them against us attitude which of course is your perogative, but don't mug yourself off by saying you haven't got it.

Again , you putting you're own tiresome slant on things.

85 games between them this season, all in midfield, i'm not putting a slant on anything, i'm just saying what it is. I'm not the one who said " To point the finger at 3 players left over from last season debacle, players who have never scored a large number of goals for our team is a bit ingenious IMO " as if again, that makes it ok as they've never scored a lot of goals. Bwah.

Have we not got a problem scoring goals? Have we not got the players at our disposal to score goals at this level? If the answer is yes than , IMO, the issue is down to how these players are being utilised. That means the system in place, the roles they are given and the tactics deployed. As I said, he ain't getting the best out of the attacking players collectively, otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate.

We've only had a problem scoring goals in our last 4 games, all of which we have scored in too for the record but of course we always want to score more than 1 goal per game that's for sure. But you're putting huge pressure on them attackers aye, especially when you're trying to eliminate all blame on the midfielders ( except Nolan of course, he needs to score loads ) because they never score any anyway.

[Bobby Orangeboom]

I disagree with the idea that Nolan's goals shouldn't necessarily be deemed a necessity. The team is built to accommodate him. It functions, largely, to support him and the way he plays. To suggest that because he's a midfielder his goals should be considered as a bonus is laughable when you take into account his position in the team.

Without those goals his tangible contribution becomes virtually non-existent. Nolan's goals have to be expected and perhaps demanded just the same as our strikers.

But he's not without those goals fj, Nolan is WITH the goals, he does it, he scores.

Of course it will never be enough, even for me, if he was on 18 i'd still wonder if he could be on 22 etc.

Goals are what the game is all about, we can have all the if's and but's about if he wasn't in the team we'd be great etc until we're blue in the face, facts are that he is highly likely to be finishing a season in double figures yet he's still getting knocked badly for all sorts of things some of which being ridiculous and Mystic Megging the whole season & all the goals we'd have scored if he wasn't in the team and i think that's wrong, it's on a par with the nonsense that was the Tevez affair where the Mystic Megging is concerned.

There is no way on God's Earth i would get on Kevin Nolan's case like some are, when large portions of our midfield are contributing virtually zilch from open play in an attacking sense, in every fcukign game.

Yes i would love it if he contributed more and would ping 40 yard passes to people on their toe and would be the quickest player in the team and set up even a few goals to add to his 9 goal tally but he hasn't and he isn't.

If he had any of what i mentioned i want him to have, i highly doubt he'd be a West Ham player anyway & that's West Ham the Championship Club people, the Championship Club that has Championship players and before anyone says it, if you wnat to blame someone for the money he earns, blame tweedle dee and tweedle dumb for firstly employing a manger that wants him as his Captain and secondly for giving him a 5 year contract, don't blame him.

[Yea Why Not]

This is some seriously impressive quoting going on here lads. Keep up the good work

[hadleighhammer]

There is no way on God's Earth i would get on Kevin Nolan's case like some are, when large portions of our midfield are contributing virtually zilch from open play in an attacking sense, in every fcukign game.

Take away the goals and you can put Nolan in with that group aswell, just without the defensive work and general involvement for 90 mins aswell seen from our other midfielders. That's despite the team being shaped largely for Nolan's benefit.

[RM6]

That's despite the team being shaped largely for Nolan's benefit.

Is it worth considering that if the team is set up around him and he's not getting involved in the game then it's because the players around him aren't good enough to get him involved?

A forward is only as good as the service he gets after all, might the same not be said for attacking midfielders?

If it's his job to get in the box then it's someone else's job to get the ball there.

[m-h]

It just easier to think of Nolan as a forward, that way there is no argument about what he does or doesn't do in midfield.
Say he ends the season on 14 goals and we get an automatic promotion spot, has he been a good signing and money well spent.
Well promotion is worth 50 million quid, so his 14 goals would seem invaluable wouldn't they. Throw in the fact that our other "true" forwards can't find the back of the net at all recently and his worth probably goes up. Fail to get promoted,
then his goals and worth could be considered less ?.

[hadleighhammer]

Is it worth considering that if the team is set up around him and he's not getting involved in the game then it's because the players around him aren't good enough to get him involved?

A forward is only as good as the service he gets after all, might the same not be said for attacking midfielders?

If it's his job to get in the box then it's someone else's job to get the ball there.

So it's everyone else's fault but Nolan's then? Despite the best team in the league, which we have?

Hasn't Alladyce been moaning about us creating enough chancs but not finishing them? If there's a lack of chances for him it has more to do with BFS' tactics and Nolan's lack of running left in his legs IMO.

[RM6]

So it's everyone else's fault but Nolan's then? Despite the best team in the league, which we have?

It is a team game so maybe it's not all Nolan's fault. The best team on paper isn't always the best team. If it were the Dutch would have a World Cup or two.

Hasn't Alladyce been moaning about us creating enough chancs but not finishing them? If there's a lack of chances for him it has more to do with BFS' tactics and Nolan's lack of running left in his legs IMO.

More often than not Nolan has taken his chances. Would he have more if the service was better?