Hillsborough

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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Mad Professor on Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:19 am

brownout wrote:Indivuduals will take the blame but it was a lack of safety culture or care that lay behind the disaster. Money & control of hooliganism over safety. (Is Grenfell heading this way too?)


Spot on! Always so easy to put the blame on an individual who was inept/out of his depth at the time!
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby jacko on Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:16 am

The lies that came out after Hillsborough were so big that even now people constantly question what the truth was.

It's right that Duckenfield goes to court.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Caribiron on Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:34 am

Quite right Jacko. That the tragedy should happen at all is appalling and Brownout's comments speak to the culture that contributed to it however, the way in which the blame and lies surrounding the tragedy were perpetrated and the actions of the likes of Duckenfield on the day mean that the removal of the stay is a victory for all football fans as well as the families of those that lost their lives.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Hugh Jargon II on Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:30 pm

Having been in many a dynamic emergency situation I can understand why the gate was opened. Wrongly. Hindsight dictates that.

Therefore to convict him of that would be unfair imo. However. He was complicit in the lies that followed so hope he goes down for that.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Caribiron on Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:09 pm

You only have to see some of the testimony coming out of Grenfell to understand that Hugh. Had the approach been completely different in the aftermath of the tragedy I would have had sympathy with your view, but not now after all this time, the lies and he deceipt.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Samba on Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:11 pm

Clearly, Duckinfield didn't open that gate in order to deliberately kill 96 people but clearly, opening that gate was one of the major reasons why 96 people died.
Manslaughter by incompetance but as others have said, perhaps even worse, the blatant lies & cover-up that followed, simply to save arses. That was the really criminal part of it all.
The first action was a mistake, the second, disgustingly deliberate.
It was so easy at that time for the police or establishment to get out of culpability & to quickly smother any actions, to the contrary.
I hope that they look at the CPS's role in all of this as well, but as they have to rely on the police putting the case evidence to them, well, no wonder it didn't go anywhere. Who polices the police?
The ipcc clearly didn't..if they had a chance to, in the first place..
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Hugh Jargon II on Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:29 pm

I’ve been reflecting on over 30 years service. I was often incident commander at fires, RTC’s and the rest

Well, no firefighter died and I managed to avoid being present at any inquiries. That’s my only feeling. I got through it with no controversy. No libel actions. No negative media.

I’m relieved. That’s all. Sign of the times. No sympathy for the old bill with this one though. Disgusting. However if we are to focus on solitary dynamic situations and decisions that on this example was conducted 30 years ago we may be causing problems for the emergency services. Who would want to take the responsibility for an extra 5k a year?

#Iammichealdowden.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Samba on Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:35 pm

Can't disagree with you, Hugh.
In this case though, the reason we're focussed is the number of dead & the lies/cover up afterwards. The shockingness of it all.
How many of us in Duckinfields place would have done exactly the same thing, that day?
Probably all of us. He was clearly floundering, that day.
Again, they've also got to look higher. Who placed Duckinfield there in that job, on that day? Who wrongly believed that he was experienced enough to do that job, on that day?
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Faithless on Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:39 pm

They'll never go as high as they need to with this. What happened on the day itself happened, what happened afterwards went to the top of the then Government. They'll not be opening that particular can
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Samba on Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:50 pm

Faithless wrote:They'll never go as high as they need to with this. What happened on the day itself happened, what happened afterwards went to the top of the then Government. They'll not be opening that particular can

:thup:
Well, certainly not while all those involved are still alive, they won't.
Like the odd, 100 year closure on the Dr David Kelly, suicide case..
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Valley Hammer on Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:14 am

There were clearly lies told but the blame goes much higher than poor old Duckinfield. In fact, it goes as high as Prime Minister Thatcher, who attended the scene the day after the disaster and was perpetuated by the altering of police officers' statements.

However, the inquest was a travesty, as it was held in Warrington, which, although not technically in Merseyside is as near as you can get. Of course they were going to get the verdict required by the JFT 96 group. Who on the jury would have dared to go against them?

How they reached the verdict that everyone outside had tickets, arrived in plenty of time and had not been drinking, makes a mockery if the whole scenario. The scousers were and still are renowned for arriving at big matches without tickets. Their behaviour prior to the CL match against Man City shows what they are still like.

Of course there were mistakes made by the police, both in the planning and on the day but, if the lies hadn't continued for over a quarter of a century this could have been consigned to the history books years ago.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Coral Snake on Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:03 am

A good mate attended the Spurs v Wolves semi final a few years prior. An accident awaiting to happen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66ZeFtviJiM
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Johnny Byrne's Boots on Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:05 am

Some charges dropped

A former chief inspector accused of trying to blame Liverpool fans for the 1989 Hillsborough disaster has had all charges against him dropped.

Sir Norman Bettison, then of South Yorkshire Police, had faced four counts of misconduct in a public office.

He was accused of telling lies about the "culpability of fans" and his role in the wake of the tragedy.

Prosecutors said insufficient evidence meant there was no real prospect of securing a conviction.

The Crown Prosecution Service said because of changes in the evidence of two witnesses, and the death of a third, it would discontinue the case.

The decision was taken following a review of the evidence and was confirmed at a hearing at Preston Crown Court.

Five others, including match commander David Duckenfield who is accused of manslaughter by gross negligence of 95 fans, are due to face trial next year.

more on BBC...
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby jacko on Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:27 pm

How did this guy ever get knighted?
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby woodgreenspur on Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:39 pm

Coral Snake wrote:A good mate attended the Spurs v Wolves semi final a few years prior. An accident awaiting to happen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66ZeFtviJiM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was at that game. Got crushed,i reckon my dad saved me from serious injury(I was 13).I remember the gates in the fencing being open so people could get on the pitch(something that didn't happen in 89 iirc).I remember it being a steward who opened then, though I since heard it claimed It was copper. Horrible experience, but could have been so much worse. No learnt anything from that day.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby sutts07 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:32 pm

It was alleged by Mr Ellaby that, over a pint in a pub while on an MBA course together in 1989, Sir Norman said he had been appointed to a team, the role of which was to blame the fans.

Paul Greaney QC, defending Sir Norman said it took "repeated requests" from the defence for the other students to be traced by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

When "eventually" they were, fifteen other students and a lecturer were contacted and "not a single one" recalled Sir Norman expressing any "inappropriate view" about Hillsborough.


Surely there was more to the defence than... "a bloke down the pub said it"

No wonder the charges were dropped.

Feels as though Sir Norman's biggest error was being the guy that suggested there were drunk, violent fans without tickets trying to get in on the day. That remains the biggest sticking point. Police far too quick to point this out in attempt to shift blame and Liverpool fans far too steadfast in denying it in an attempt to remain exempt from any and all blame.

Only those who were there will really know the truth. Chances are there were fans without tickets who were drunk and abusive and trying to blag their way in. That certainly wouldn't have helped in terms of crowd control but at the same time, the vast majority of fans would have had tickets and been well behaved so it goes without saying that there were countless faults on the side of the police and stadium officials that had a far greater impact on the outcome of that fateful day.

I genuinely feel for the families of the victims and can't even begin to think how they must feel nor understand their desire to search for justice. For me it just makes me sad each time it all reappears in the news. Such a tragic waste of life.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby goa127 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:33 pm

That video of the spurs v wolves game is truly chilling. A steward/copper opening a gate probably stopped Hillsborough happening earlier. I'm absolutely certain that there were ticketless and probably drunken fans outside. I presume that's why there are hundreds of police there to control a possibly unruly crowd. The event was a disaster, the deliberate lies and cover-up were a scandal of huge proportions.I'm still disgusted by the scale of the lies years after they were exposed
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Johnny Byrne's Boots on Mon May 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Hillsborough safety officer Graham Mackrell, so far the only person to have been found guilty of any offence, has been fined £6,500 for 'unsafe turnstile arrangements' on the day.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Crossd_Hammrs on Mon May 13, 2019 12:43 pm

Coral Snake wrote:A good mate attended the Spurs v Wolves semi final a few years prior. An accident awaiting to happen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


One of the comments on there about the BG! I presume that's the North Bank he's talking about - anyone remember this?
Why would so many Leicester fans turn up at West Ham v Charlton?

"I remember going to Charlton away in the early nineties when they were playing at Upton Park. They allowed Leicester fans to buy tickets on the turn styles as they knew Charlton wouldn't fill the ground. The only problem was they allowed all the Leicester fans through the away end behind the goal. I was around 10 when this happened and was standing right at the front. I remember being pushed against the wall at the front but luckily the fences had been taken down because of Hillsborough so the fans ran across the pitch into a empty stand. I remember the local newspaper saying Leicester took close to 15000 to the Charlton game and if those fences were still up it would of been another Hillsborough disaster. RIP to the 96 I hope your family's find justice!"
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby goa127 on Mon May 13, 2019 12:48 pm

I think Leicester were playing vCharlton. West Ham weren't playing, but it was at the Boleyn
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